6 ms·

Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security

Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security, battery performance and so on. So no, you can't choose. When we say "you can choose" we need to realize that this is only good when you can make an educated, informed choice. If you can't, you need to be protected. And that's Apple's role. Random choice is not a choice. Would you have your infant "choose" what drugs to take for headache for example? What criteria will they use? Pill shape, color, size and flavor. Well that's basically also our proverbial mom and pop picking a browser engine. Furthermore browser engines have this peculiar habit of getting into everything. Open any app at all and it's probably using WebKit without you realizing it. What if the app uses some random outdated fork of Netscape, why not? Do you realize what "choice" you made by opening that app? No.

agust 5y ago
Yes, users can make an informed choice about what product to use or to buy. This is true for computers, this is true for mobile devices, this is true for any kind of software, and obviously this is true for web browsers. People have been doing it on all other OSes since web browsers have existed. There is no reason to prevent competition in such a market, and hopefully regulators will become aware of the issue and act on it soon.
- yourenotsmart 5y ago
  So your answer to all specific problems I stated is "I reject your world and substitute my own". Not one reasonable and intellectually honest person expects that the average phone user out there even knows what a browser engine IS, let alone compare two of them, or know where it's used (when it's not even disclosed). Keep in mind smartphones are even more widely used than "computers" in general. So I guess even 8 year olds now are expected to do a security analysis on the browser engine their game uses before playing. Delusional.
  - _Algernon_ 5y ago
    Just because the average consumer doesn't understand browser engines, doesn't mean that those who do should have that option removed. Hide it in developer settings behind three warning prompts for all I care but make the option available to those who want it. And drop the ad hominem rhethoric please.
    - yourenotsmart 5y ago
      What you suggest actually can't work, it means applications have no control themselves what engine they run on. Browser engines can't just be a config setting, you're basically asking for chaos. Also you should review what "ad hominem" means. Saying "no one intellectually honest would say 2 + 2 is 5" is not ad hominem.
      - _Algernon_ 5y ago
        Calling someone delusional on a completely subjective issue, for voicing an opinion definitely qualifies as an ad hominem.
        yourenotsmart 5y ago
        That's not ad hominem. You have it backwards. Ad hominem doesn't mean "don't say bad words about me and my opinions". Ad hominem would be disregarding an opinion not by discussing the opinion, but by discarding the opinion based on WHO said it. It's in fact very hard to commit ad hominem against an anonymous person online who has said nothing about themselves. If they said "I have a history of delusions" and I said "therefore your opinion has no merit", that's ad hominem. The fact that despite that you constantly hear people complaining about "ad hominem" online is just that much funnier. Strawman is another one that most people love to say, while having no clue what it means. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/barrierbreaker/two-misunderstood-logical-fallacies/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/barrierbreaker/two-misundersto... I don't know or care who said the above opinion. I care about their opinion and their opinion was delusional. Thinking the world at large knows, cares, and can make "informed choices" about the browser engines used throughout their phone apps is delusional. Also, there's nothing "subjective" about whether all smartphone users are web developers, and therefore happen to care about browser engines.
ahiknsr 5y ago
> Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security, battery performance and so on. why do they have to make this choice, why can't they just use safari?
Hammershaft 5y ago
> Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security, battery performance and so on. > So no, you can't choose. When we say "you can choose" we need to realize that this is only good when you can make an educated, informed choice. If you can't, you need to be protected. And that's Apple's role. I'm getting strong deja vu to arguments over authoritarian nanny states in this. Even if I accept the contentious value judgment that people need to be guided and protected by an entity that has strongly conflicting interests to them, I still don't think this is a strong argument as the default browser would still be Safari. People with little to no understanding of what a browser is are hardly going to download some outdated fork of Netscape.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lenkite 5y ago
> Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security, battery performance and so on. My 80+ year old grandma made the informed choice to use Firefox on macOS. She can't use Firefox on her iPhone. She wants to use Firefox everywhere. She disagrees with you.

agust 5y ago

Yes, users can make an informed choice about what product to use or to buy. This is true for computers, this is true for mobile devices, this is true for any kind of software, and obviously this is true for web browsers. People have been doing it on all other OSes since web browsers have existed. There is no reason to prevent competition in such a market, and hopefully regulators will become aware of the issue and act on it soon.

yourenotsmart 5y ago
So your answer to all specific problems I stated is "I reject your world and substitute my own". Not one reasonable and intellectually honest person expects that the average phone user out there even knows what a browser engine IS, let alone compare two of them, or know where it's used (when it's not even disclosed). Keep in mind smartphones are even more widely used than "computers" in general. So I guess even 8 year olds now are expected to do a security analysis on the browser engine their game uses before playing. Delusional.
- _Algernon_ 5y ago
  Just because the average consumer doesn't understand browser engines, doesn't mean that those who do should have that option removed. Hide it in developer settings behind three warning prompts for all I care but make the option available to those who want it. And drop the ad hominem rhethoric please.
  - yourenotsmart 5y ago
    What you suggest actually can't work, it means applications have no control themselves what engine they run on. Browser engines can't just be a config setting, you're basically asking for chaos. Also you should review what "ad hominem" means. Saying "no one intellectually honest would say 2 + 2 is 5" is not ad hominem.
    - _Algernon_ 5y ago
      Calling someone delusional on a completely subjective issue, for voicing an opinion definitely qualifies as an ad hominem.
      - yourenotsmart 5y ago
        That's not ad hominem. You have it backwards. Ad hominem doesn't mean "don't say bad words about me and my opinions". Ad hominem would be disregarding an opinion not by discussing the opinion, but by discarding the opinion based on WHO said it. It's in fact very hard to commit ad hominem against an anonymous person online who has said nothing about themselves. If they said "I have a history of delusions" and I said "therefore your opinion has no merit", that's ad hominem. The fact that despite that you constantly hear people complaining about "ad hominem" online is just that much funnier. Strawman is another one that most people love to say, while having no clue what it means. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/barrierbreaker/two-misunderstood-logical-fallacies/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/barrierbreaker/two-misundersto... I don't know or care who said the above opinion. I care about their opinion and their opinion was delusional. Thinking the world at large knows, cares, and can make "informed choices" about the browser engines used throughout their phone apps is delusional. Also, there's nothing "subjective" about whether all smartphone users are web developers, and therefore happen to care about browser engines.

ahiknsr 5y ago

Hammershaft 5y ago

> Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security, battery performance and so on. > So no, you can't choose. When we say "you can choose" we need to realize that this is only good when you can make an educated, informed choice. If you can't, you need to be protected. And that's Apple's role. I'm getting strong deja vu to arguments over authoritarian nanny states in this. Even if I accept the contentious value judgment that people need to be guided and protected by an entity that has strongly conflicting interests to them, I still don't think this is a strong argument as the default browser would still be Safari. People with little to no understanding of what a browser is are hardly going to download some outdated fork of Netscape.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lenkite 5y ago

> Users can't make an informed choice about what browser engine they use. They don't understand what a browser engine is, and what impact it has on their security, battery performance and so on. My 80+ year old grandma made the informed choice to use Firefox on macOS. She can't use Firefox on her iPhone. She wants to use Firefox everywhere. She disagrees with you.