15 ms·

Fire breaks out at Tesla Big Battery

77 points by gavanm 5y ago

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
Does this demonstrate that this particular large grid connected implantation have ineffectual fire suppression? That sounds frightening!
alpaca128 5y ago
This happened during initial testing, within the first 24 hours. Not good, but this is what testing is for. Still I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have the individual units stand so close to each other, in the pictures it looks rather tight when you consider possible fires.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lazyjones 5y ago
  > in the pictures it looks rather tight when you consider possible fires. It's a good opportunity to test whether it's too tight, too.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  I assume at a certain pack scale you just have to assume fires will happen on a regular basis. You need to make sure the fire doesn't spread, doesn't pollute too much, and goes out by itself without needing emergency services etc. At that point you can just have a dashboard with "percentage of fleet offline due to fire damage", and in your annual maintanance you replace those.
Eikon 5y ago
It’s crazy how actually terrible lithium-ion battery are for the environment while portrayed as green. From production to charging with usually fossil energy. Not even speaking of hazards like shown in this article.
- dna_polymerase 5y ago
  > From production to charging with usually fossil energy. That's not the fault of lithium-ion battery. Also, I think it is interesting that all of a sudden people care about the production of lithium and paint it as particularly detrimental to the environment when in fact they accept the same realities in every other resource they are using. Almost like they follow a stupid agenda propagated by a dying industry. Edit: I'm not saying we shouldn't care about lithium production and it's effect on the environment. But things are improving drastically and the arguments I hear against lithium are always the same talking points the ICE-industry used to take on Tesla.
  - foerbert 5y ago
    On the one hand I tend to agree that many environmental consequences are really not appreciated and that lithium tends to get an unusually high amount of attention in comparison, but I also think maybe that's actually reasonable and a good thing. The reason I think that might be the case is because lithium-ion batteries seem to be on track to become pretty ubiquitous. It probably won't ever be equivalent to oil products, but it'll probably get far closer than most things. Yet it's still relatively early days. We're not at the point where fundamental change is impossible. We're increasingly aware of all the problems with oil-products, but... not so much is happening about it. They are so fundamental to everything that major changes are exceedingly difficult and expensive. With lithium-ion batteries we aren't there yet, but we're getting closer every day. If we put an outsized amount of attention on the problems now, we have a better shot at actually fixing them, as bigger changes are more feasible now than they ever will be in the future.
    - afarrell 5y ago
      The concern is, what actions result from the attention to the problem? If the action is "start a 7-year process to research solutions to solve them" -- great! If the action is "block lithium mining" then that environmental policy will be as effective as San Francisco housing policy.
- kiryin 5y ago
lynguist 5y ago
I would argue the problem is to give this job to a for profit consumer electronics company like Tesla at all. Tesla does not have the culture to engineer a nation-scale production site, they only know how to prototype. The correct solution, I’d argue, would be to set up the different public governmental departments how the different departments are set up at Amazon: they have a public interface at everything they do and they do it to a level that you could sell it to the outside. And then to give this job to the public.
- stupidcar 5y ago
  The site is built and managed by Neoen[1]. Tesla are only the battery hardware provider. Neoen operates power and storage plants in 13 countries[2]. [1] https://www.power-technology.com/news/neoen-to-build-300mw-battery-in-geelong-australia/ https://www.power-technology.com/news/neoen-to-build-300mw-b... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoen
flgb 5y ago
Meanwhile two fossil-fuel power stations in Australia have had much more serious fires recently, which are very unlikely to attract the international medias attention ... - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-17/victorian-government-declares-state-of-energy-emergency/13394958 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-17/victorian-government-... - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/qld-cs-energy-releases-photo-of-damaged-callide-power-station/100186330 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/qld-cs-energy-release...
- petee 5y ago
  Well this is bigger news, a giant battery from a well known company failed catastrophically within 24 hours; versus a plant running since 2001*(edit, wrong generator) I personally have no idea the numbers, but i'd argue that lithium batteries have alot more explosive potential than your average powerstation fire...curious if anyone can compare energy density here
  - tbihl 5y ago
    The bad part isn't just energy density, but that lithium fires are self oxidizing, so you can't smother them. Your only method of attack is to get temperature down. Also, this type of smoke is awful. Anyone living in San Diego East of the 5 last year can probably remember how bad the Navy ship fire was compared to normal forest fire smoke.
    - CraigJPerry 5y ago
      I think these are lithium ion batteries not lithium batteries so you should be able to just use water to smother them. Lithium ion packs have hardly any lithium metal, if i remember right it’s lithium salt?
      - CraigJPerry 5y ago
        Re: downvotes, some more info: > How to extinguish a lithium-ion battery fire > Let’s cut right to the chase. Despite their name, lithium-ion batteries used in consumer products do not contain any actual lithium metal. Therefore, a Class D fire extinguisher is not to be used to fight a lithium-ion battery fire. Class D fire extinguishers, which contain dry powder, are intended for combustible metal fires only. Since lithium-ion batteries aren’t made with metallic lithium, a Class D dry powder extinguisher would not be effective. > So, what kind of fire extinguisher should you use in this scenario? Lithium-ion batteries are considered a Class B fire, so a standard ABC or BC dry chemical fire extinguisher should be used. Class B is the classification given to flammable liquids. Lithium-ion batteries contain liquid electrolytes that provide a conductive pathway, so the batteries receive a B fire classification. >> https://resources.impactfireservices.com/how-do-you-put-out-lithium-ion-battery-fire https://resources.impactfireservices.com/how-do-you-put-out-...
uCantCauseUCant 5y ago
ncluding having the factory repainted. Okay. So what's the problem? Well, apparently, the painters left some oily rags in a garbage can. Mm-hmm. But because of cuts to the sanitation service, the trash was not collected and the rags smoldered and caught fire. And because of cuts to the fire department, the blaze spread. A number of concerned citizens volunteered to help fight the fire, but because the water was cut off, they could not. Okay, so what happened? Well, the vast majority of our expensive, rare earth materials survived the fire. Well, that's something. Until the flames abated, when because of mass layoffs of police, the locals that were there to fight the fire decided instead to loot the burned-out factory. The National Guard attempted to reach the factory to help stop this, but... The roads. The roads, sir, yes. Okay. So, we lost it all? Everything? Yes.
cesarb 5y ago
I recall an old article about these batteries (https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/ https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-saf...) in which testing showed that a failure within the battery itself would be contained by the cooling system, but a failure outside it wouldn't. Since the fire in the pictures on this article doesn't look contained, I wonder whether the cooling system was turned off at that moment (because it was not yet in operation, or because it was turned off after the failure started), or whether the fire started outside the battery modules (for instance, in the wiring).
- rasz 5y ago
  Or even more likely - safety claim was too optimistic.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  I suspect a wiring fault. All it takes is one connector to fall into muddy ground during installation, and now you have a nice high resistance path ready to get red hot as soon as the system comes under full load.
__m 5y ago
They should build walls between the units, so that the fire doesn't spread. Guess it takes some time for regulations to catch up.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fblp 5y ago
Update: fire has been contained and their plan is to let it burn down. I'd imagine regulations requiring better fire control may follow. Toxic plumes of smoke impacting residents for 100s of miles won't be acceptable. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/tesla-battery-fire-moorabool-geelong/100337488 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/tesla-battery-fire-mo...
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Looks horribly contained https://static-ffx-io.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.48%2C$multiply_0.9735%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_60%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/c89fa2931aeb4c334b48648dc8c58f97c2c0422c https://static-ffx-io.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/static.ffx.... A fire I get but the lack of containment / control seems crazy
throwaway81523 5y ago
Sounds like Megapack wasn't that great an idea after all. Megapack is Tesla's term for a utility scale module containing about 3MWh of batteries, and this station (300MWh) is made of ~ 100 megapacks, one of which caught on fire. Megapack is a relatively new thing. Earlier Tesla utility-scale batteries including the one in South Australia were made of smaller modules called Powerpack (I don't remember their size). A Powerpack catching on fire will presumably release fewer toxins and stuff than a Megapack, simply through being smaller. It looks like some effort went into stopping the fire in the burning Megapack from spreading into other modules. So the modularity doesn't automatically contain the fire all by itself, but it apparently helps. More coverage from a Tesla battery stan: https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-megapack-container-on-fire-at-site-of-australias-biggest-battery/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-megapack-container-on-fire...
- rasz 5y ago
  I can imagine a futuristic Tree like structure with Megapacks affixed in the air. In case of fire faulty module is ejected, falls to the ground and slids away to a designated disposal bay. Or just build on a slight incline with all modules on tracks.

77 points by gavanm 5y ago

Does this demonstrate that this particular large grid connected implantation have ineffectual fire suppression? That sounds frightening!

alpaca128 5y ago

This happened during initial testing, within the first 24 hours. Not good, but this is what testing is for. Still I'm not sure if it's a good idea to have the individual units stand so close to each other, in the pictures it looks rather tight when you consider possible fires.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lazyjones 5y ago
> in the pictures it looks rather tight when you consider possible fires. It's a good opportunity to test whether it's too tight, too.
londons_explore 5y ago
I assume at a certain pack scale you just have to assume fires will happen on a regular basis. You need to make sure the fire doesn't spread, doesn't pollute too much, and goes out by itself without needing emergency services etc. At that point you can just have a dashboard with "percentage of fleet offline due to fire damage", and in your annual maintanance you replace those.

Eikon 5y ago

It’s crazy how actually terrible lithium-ion battery are for the environment while portrayed as green. From production to charging with usually fossil energy. Not even speaking of hazards like shown in this article.

dna_polymerase 5y ago
> From production to charging with usually fossil energy. That's not the fault of lithium-ion battery. Also, I think it is interesting that all of a sudden people care about the production of lithium and paint it as particularly detrimental to the environment when in fact they accept the same realities in every other resource they are using. Almost like they follow a stupid agenda propagated by a dying industry. Edit: I'm not saying we shouldn't care about lithium production and it's effect on the environment. But things are improving drastically and the arguments I hear against lithium are always the same talking points the ICE-industry used to take on Tesla.
- foerbert 5y ago
  On the one hand I tend to agree that many environmental consequences are really not appreciated and that lithium tends to get an unusually high amount of attention in comparison, but I also think maybe that's actually reasonable and a good thing. The reason I think that might be the case is because lithium-ion batteries seem to be on track to become pretty ubiquitous. It probably won't ever be equivalent to oil products, but it'll probably get far closer than most things. Yet it's still relatively early days. We're not at the point where fundamental change is impossible. We're increasingly aware of all the problems with oil-products, but... not so much is happening about it. They are so fundamental to everything that major changes are exceedingly difficult and expensive. With lithium-ion batteries we aren't there yet, but we're getting closer every day. If we put an outsized amount of attention on the problems now, we have a better shot at actually fixing them, as bigger changes are more feasible now than they ever will be in the future.
  - afarrell 5y ago
    The concern is, what actions result from the attention to the problem? If the action is "start a 7-year process to research solutions to solve them" -- great! If the action is "block lithium mining" then that environmental policy will be as effective as San Francisco housing policy.
kiryin 5y ago

lynguist 5y ago

I would argue the problem is to give this job to a for profit consumer electronics company like Tesla at all. Tesla does not have the culture to engineer a nation-scale production site, they only know how to prototype. The correct solution, I’d argue, would be to set up the different public governmental departments how the different departments are set up at Amazon: they have a public interface at everything they do and they do it to a level that you could sell it to the outside. And then to give this job to the public.

stupidcar 5y ago
The site is built and managed by Neoen[1]. Tesla are only the battery hardware provider. Neoen operates power and storage plants in 13 countries[2]. [1] https://www.power-technology.com/news/neoen-to-build-300mw-battery-in-geelong-australia/ https://www.power-technology.com/news/neoen-to-build-300mw-b... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoen

flgb 5y ago

Meanwhile two fossil-fuel power stations in Australia have had much more serious fires recently, which are very unlikely to attract the international medias attention ... - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-17/victorian-government-declares-state-of-energy-emergency/13394958 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-17/victorian-government-... - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/qld-cs-energy-releases-photo-of-damaged-callide-power-station/100186330 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-02/qld-cs-energy-release...

petee 5y ago
Well this is bigger news, a giant battery from a well known company failed catastrophically within 24 hours; versus a plant running since 2001*(edit, wrong generator) I personally have no idea the numbers, but i'd argue that lithium batteries have alot more explosive potential than your average powerstation fire...curious if anyone can compare energy density here
- tbihl 5y ago
  The bad part isn't just energy density, but that lithium fires are self oxidizing, so you can't smother them. Your only method of attack is to get temperature down. Also, this type of smoke is awful. Anyone living in San Diego East of the 5 last year can probably remember how bad the Navy ship fire was compared to normal forest fire smoke.
  - CraigJPerry 5y ago
    I think these are lithium ion batteries not lithium batteries so you should be able to just use water to smother them. Lithium ion packs have hardly any lithium metal, if i remember right it’s lithium salt?
    - CraigJPerry 5y ago
      Re: downvotes, some more info: > How to extinguish a lithium-ion battery fire > Let’s cut right to the chase. Despite their name, lithium-ion batteries used in consumer products do not contain any actual lithium metal. Therefore, a Class D fire extinguisher is not to be used to fight a lithium-ion battery fire. Class D fire extinguishers, which contain dry powder, are intended for combustible metal fires only. Since lithium-ion batteries aren’t made with metallic lithium, a Class D dry powder extinguisher would not be effective. > So, what kind of fire extinguisher should you use in this scenario? Lithium-ion batteries are considered a Class B fire, so a standard ABC or BC dry chemical fire extinguisher should be used. Class B is the classification given to flammable liquids. Lithium-ion batteries contain liquid electrolytes that provide a conductive pathway, so the batteries receive a B fire classification. >> https://resources.impactfireservices.com/how-do-you-put-out-lithium-ion-battery-fire https://resources.impactfireservices.com/how-do-you-put-out-...

uCantCauseUCant 5y ago

ncluding having the factory repainted. Okay. So what's the problem? Well, apparently, the painters left some oily rags in a garbage can. Mm-hmm. But because of cuts to the sanitation service, the trash was not collected and the rags smoldered and caught fire. And because of cuts to the fire department, the blaze spread. A number of concerned citizens volunteered to help fight the fire, but because the water was cut off, they could not. Okay, so what happened? Well, the vast majority of our expensive, rare earth materials survived the fire. Well, that's something. Until the flames abated, when because of mass layoffs of police, the locals that were there to fight the fire decided instead to loot the burned-out factory. The National Guard attempted to reach the factory to help stop this, but... The roads. The roads, sir, yes. Okay. So, we lost it all? Everything? Yes.

cesarb 5y ago

I recall an old article about these batteries (https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/ https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-saf...) in which testing showed that a failure within the battery itself would be contained by the cooling system, but a failure outside it wouldn't. Since the fire in the pictures on this article doesn't look contained, I wonder whether the cooling system was turned off at that moment (because it was not yet in operation, or because it was turned off after the failure started), or whether the fire started outside the battery modules (for instance, in the wiring).

rasz 5y ago
Or even more likely - safety claim was too optimistic.
londons_explore 5y ago
I suspect a wiring fault. All it takes is one connector to fall into muddy ground during installation, and now you have a nice high resistance path ready to get red hot as soon as the system comes under full load.

__m 5y ago

They should build walls between the units, so that the fire doesn't spread. Guess it takes some time for regulations to catch up.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fblp 5y ago

Update: fire has been contained and their plan is to let it burn down. I'd imagine regulations requiring better fire control may follow. Toxic plumes of smoke impacting residents for 100s of miles won't be acceptable. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/tesla-battery-fire-moorabool-geelong/100337488 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/tesla-battery-fire-mo...

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

Looks horribly contained https://static-ffx-io.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.48%2C$multiply_0.9735%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_60%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/c89fa2931aeb4c334b48648dc8c58f97c2c0422c https://static-ffx-io.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/static.ffx.... A fire I get but the lack of containment / control seems crazy

throwaway81523 5y ago

Sounds like Megapack wasn't that great an idea after all. Megapack is Tesla's term for a utility scale module containing about 3MWh of batteries, and this station (300MWh) is made of ~ 100 megapacks, one of which caught on fire. Megapack is a relatively new thing. Earlier Tesla utility-scale batteries including the one in South Australia were made of smaller modules called Powerpack (I don't remember their size). A Powerpack catching on fire will presumably release fewer toxins and stuff than a Megapack, simply through being smaller. It looks like some effort went into stopping the fire in the burning Megapack from spreading into other modules. So the modularity doesn't automatically contain the fire all by itself, but it apparently helps. More coverage from a Tesla battery stan: https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-megapack-container-on-fire-at-site-of-australias-biggest-battery/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-megapack-container-on-fire...

rasz 5y ago
I can imagine a futuristic Tree like structure with Megapacks affixed in the air. In case of fire faulty module is ejected, falls to the ground and slids away to a designated disposal bay. Or just build on a slight incline with all modules on tracks.