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Don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians? My guess is that they do more to protect the average palestinian than meets the eye....definitely more tha

by jkkorn 5y ago

Don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians? My guess is that they do more to protect the average palestinian than meets the eye....definitely more than Hamas or Fatah Also, I'd take HRW with a grain of salt when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Even their founder has expressed concern: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch#:~:text=Critics%20of%20HRW%20include%20the,response%20to%20critical%20HRW%20reports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watc.... Might be interesting: https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/palestinians-accuse-hamas-of-storing-weapons-in-residential-areas-674793 https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/palestinians-accuse-hamas-...

zensavona 5y ago
Is Amnesty also biased? https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...
- jkkorn 5y ago
  I don't know as much about them, sorry. Quick Google search showed that there has been some claims of selection bias and "not telling the full story". My take is that they're doing a disservice to both sides.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  I just glanced it. Yes. Bias here. Whoever wrote this has not been reading history closely enough. I will continue to support Amnesty though. One of the better ones IMO, together with MSF.
hhmc 5y ago
I'm not sure you can simulataneously accuse hrw of bias (wrt isreal-palestine conflict), but also link to the jerusalem post
- jkkorn 5y ago
  Washington Post better? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/3... They've been doing it for years. The odd ones are the one's who aren't reporting it.
nashashmi 5y ago
The Wikipedia is a case of whataboutism. And a complaint of how difficult it is to influence HRW by government, leaders and special interest groups. The fact that you linked to a jpost article and shined light on the little israel does to “save” lives after literally bombarding them tells me where you stand in relation to the conflict.
- jkkorn 5y ago
  Just look up Robert L. Bernstein. HRW founder, left and was critical of the organization's take on Israel until his last days. regarding my stance in relation to the conflict: - I think (and know) that Israel does more to save palestinian lives than the palestinian government. The evidence is endless. I can link to other new sources if Jpost is unnaceptable. - I saw a lot of people completely demonizing one side of the conflict. Hell, I'd like to see everyone holding Hamas to the same standards. - I've seen very strong words (apartheid, colonial, genocidal...) with... no evidence to support it.
metta2uall 5y ago
By "don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians" do you mean the warning phone calls? They don't make such calls when their aim is to assassinate someone - for obvious reasons.. The IDF also has good information on who lives where - that's how they know where to bomb - so they know that many children will be killed/murdered - as they often are.. The aim is killing some terrorist leader - which is arguably rather dubious given that they'll soon be replaced and the additional hatred will help greatly with terroist recruitment.. e.g. see https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entir...
skinkestek 5y ago
You are correct. Avoiding civilian casualties is however extremely hard when you deal with people who: - fire rockets from schools, hospitals and generally populated areas (there are wide fields they could have used) - encourage people to stay when they get informed about bombing - count bombed terrorists as civilians (lists exist with names and photos of claimed "civilians" in uniforms and with guns) - when hitting a stash of rockets in the middle of a neighborhood there's always a chance something flies further than the original blast - "civilian casualties of Israeli bombing" also contains a good number of casualties of defect arab terrorist rockets. Furthermore: it has always started on the Arab ("Palestinian") side the last years. A massive difference exist if someone gets hurt after they started the fight or not.
- DSingularity 5y ago
  Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes. Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes. Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering. Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach. The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2]. They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhXRDS1Dtw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhXRDS1Dtw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLzRv_kNXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLzRv_kNXU [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_war_beach_bombing_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_war_beach_bombing_in... I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians?
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    > Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes. > Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes. This is another important discussion. However the recent east Jerusalem case has been about Jewish homes that was given to Arab families during the short Jordanian rule of the area, wasn't it? > Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering. I cannot support everything Israelis do. If this is correct and the kids where unarmed etc this is a war crime and should be punished as such. > Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach. Extremely sad case. Also possible reason for war crimes investigation, but: It would be extremely ironic if that case gets prosecuted while the even worse guys who start a war from this area doesn't get prosecuted. Israelis are to blame here for not being careful enough, "Palestinian leaders" for starting this. > The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. No, they are quite clear that it is civilian buildings - only with significant presence of legitimate targets. > They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2]. Link does not support your claim? > They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3]. Again, link does not support your claim. [...] > I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians? I do not dehumanize them. I feel terribly sorry for them. They are suffering more than the Israelis now. But the solution isn't to continue to ostracize the least unreasonable part of the conflict and turn a blind eye to the ones who keeps starting this "war" again and again.

by jkkorn 5y ago

zensavona 5y ago

Is Amnesty also biased? https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...

jkkorn 5y ago
I don't know as much about them, sorry. Quick Google search showed that there has been some claims of selection bias and "not telling the full story". My take is that they're doing a disservice to both sides.
skinkestek 5y ago
I just glanced it. Yes. Bias here. Whoever wrote this has not been reading history closely enough. I will continue to support Amnesty though. One of the better ones IMO, together with MSF.

hhmc 5y ago

I'm not sure you can simulataneously accuse hrw of bias (wrt isreal-palestine conflict), but also link to the jerusalem post

jkkorn 5y ago
Washington Post better? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/3... They've been doing it for years. The odd ones are the one's who aren't reporting it.

nashashmi 5y ago

The Wikipedia is a case of whataboutism. And a complaint of how difficult it is to influence HRW by government, leaders and special interest groups. The fact that you linked to a jpost article and shined light on the little israel does to “save” lives after literally bombarding them tells me where you stand in relation to the conflict.

jkkorn 5y ago
Just look up Robert L. Bernstein. HRW founder, left and was critical of the organization's take on Israel until his last days. regarding my stance in relation to the conflict: - I think (and know) that Israel does more to save palestinian lives than the palestinian government. The evidence is endless. I can link to other new sources if Jpost is unnaceptable. - I saw a lot of people completely demonizing one side of the conflict. Hell, I'd like to see everyone holding Hamas to the same standards. - I've seen very strong words (apartheid, colonial, genocidal...) with... no evidence to support it.

metta2uall 5y ago

By "don't they do everything to avoid hitting civilians" do you mean the warning phone calls? They don't make such calls when their aim is to assassinate someone - for obvious reasons.. The IDF also has good information on who lives where - that's how they know where to bomb - so they know that many children will be killed/murdered - as they often are.. The aim is killing some terrorist leader - which is arguably rather dubious given that they'll soon be replaced and the additional hatred will help greatly with terroist recruitment.. e.g. see https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entir...

skinkestek 5y ago

You are correct. Avoiding civilian casualties is however extremely hard when you deal with people who: - fire rockets from schools, hospitals and generally populated areas (there are wide fields they could have used) - encourage people to stay when they get informed about bombing - count bombed terrorists as civilians (lists exist with names and photos of claimed "civilians" in uniforms and with guns) - when hitting a stash of rockets in the middle of a neighborhood there's always a chance something flies further than the original blast - "civilian casualties of Israeli bombing" also contains a good number of casualties of defect arab terrorist rockets. Furthermore: it has always started on the Arab ("Palestinian") side the last years. A massive difference exist if someone gets hurt after they started the fight or not.

DSingularity 5y ago
Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes. Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes. Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering. Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach. The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2]. They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhXRDS1Dtw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLhXRDS1Dtw [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLzRv_kNXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyLzRv_kNXU [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_war_beach_bombing_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_war_beach_bombing_in... I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians?
- skinkestek 5y ago
  > Israeli settlers regularly steal Palestinian lands and homes. > Israeli military regularly demolishes Palestinian homes. This is another important discussion. However the recent east Jerusalem case has been about Jewish homes that was given to Arab families during the short Jordanian rule of the area, wasn't it? > Israeli snipers kill Palestinian children with sniper rifles, sometimes while comrades are cheering. I cannot support everything Israelis do. If this is correct and the kids where unarmed etc this is a war crime and should be punished as such. > Israeli drones kill Palestinian children playing soccer on the beach. Extremely sad case. Also possible reason for war crimes investigation, but: It would be extremely ironic if that case gets prosecuted while the even worse guys who start a war from this area doesn't get prosecuted. Israelis are to blame here for not being careful enough, "Palestinian leaders" for starting this. > The Israeli army wants us to not believe our eyes when we see the destruction of civilian buildings [1]. No, they are quite clear that it is civilian buildings - only with significant presence of legitimate targets. > They want us to pretend like its normal for snipers to cheer when they shoot unarmed civilians [2]. Link does not support your claim? > They want us to pretend like its normal to fire missiles at children playing on the beach [3]. Again, link does not support your claim. [...] > I wonder, what is that makes you dehumanize Palestinians and present such a skewed picture of what happens to Palestinians? I do not dehumanize them. I feel terribly sorry for them. They are suffering more than the Israelis now. But the solution isn't to continue to ostracize the least unreasonable part of the conflict and turn a blind eye to the ones who keeps starting this "war" again and again.