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“Plug and socket”, industry group pushes for "obvious" change in terminology
- liaukovv 5y agoSuch proposals usually start with "self-evident" assertion of harm incorrect terminology causes, but is it actually measurable? Did anyone make research while isolating influence of such things? Sociology is such a shitshow
- LunaSea 5y agoNope, it's classic outrage culture and bullying tactic.
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoWho is outraged and who is bullying in this case? It looks like the industry is being proactive and is pre-empting outrage. Using gendered terminology is unnecessary anyway, to the point where it becomes childish (giggle, boy plug goes into girl socket and you get sparks)
- lotsofpulp 5y agoMale/female terminology cuts through noise and using male/female for plugs translates to probably every language immediately if you are trying to convey what plugs into what. I can see a possibility that it had real utility in communicating concepts across completely, different languages, where using the words socket and plug might have caused confusion and more time spent in translation.
- senortumnus 5y agoAgreed - it’s intuitive to humans, the primary users of tech Plug and socket: less intuitive
- raxxorrax 5y agoUsing gendered terminology is probably not harmful at all. Why should it be? This terminology was understood in almost all colleagues in nearly any languages. Most were men, yes, but that isn't the reason why women are underrepresentated.
- raxxorrax 5y agoYou can call plugs "famale" too: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32861597805.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32861597805.html technically gender neutral... although I find the double head a bit indecent...
- anoncake 5y agoIf this terminology actually causes harm we should see trans people and groups propose such a change, not an industry group looking for a PR opportunity.
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoYou're saying it should be reactionary, that someone should get angry first. You're also making assumptions about the people pushing for this. Why not pre-empt it and save everyone a lot of headaches? You don't need to be a victim or to be offended to realize a problem and work on a fix. I mean I'm not affected or offended by your comment, yet here I am.
- anoncake 5y agoYou actually do, in this case. If using the terms "male" and "female" causes harm, the harm it causes is psychological. You can't really realize it from the outside. There is nothing to pre-empt here: These terms are already used to either they already cause harm or they won't start doing so. Which means there is no reason to effectively guess if they cause harm since you can actually ask someone who you think may be harmed. Solving a problem that doesn't actually exist is just a waste of time and resources. Moreover, it gives people the impression that "wokeness" in general is just pointless virtue signalling.
- raxxorrax 5y agoI do make assumptions about people pushing this at this point. I don't realize the problem and nobody can explain it. I see this as PR and people falling for it that wait for empty promises about something.
- dmd 5y agoThey have been, for decades. The response has always been "to succeed this kind of change needs to come from within the industry".
- anoncake 5y agoI believe you -- and I don't actually like the gendered terms myself -- but do you have a source for that?
- CJefferson 5y agoHow could you isolate such an effect? I'm sure the problem is linked to society as a whole -- the words only make sense because people relate them to genetalia. People have done research by asking people what they think about such gendered terms, and people in the less represented gender (in whichever situation you are talking about) tend to dislike them.
- cdot2 5y agoWhich is the less represented gender here?
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoDoes that actually matter?
- CJefferson 5y agoI'm guessing women are under-represented in the Professional Audio Manufacturers Alliance. I will admit I don't have evidence of that.
- liaukovv 5y agoMaybe less represented gender likes this terminology less because they understand it less(because they are less represented) I'm just saying waving away the need for proving points before taking acion is doing more harm than good
- raxxorrax 5y ago> but is it actually measurable? Of course not. Although this isn't sociology and shouldn't be blamed on the field. Yes, they have these guys, but it is a minority. It is just a silly group of industry partners.
- squiggleblaz 5y agoOh please do. With something like an audio cable at least there's one end that is purely sticking out and one end that is purely sticking in. But with a lot of other cables there's a mix of inny bits and outy bits and it took me a long time to work out which bit I'm supposed to pay attention to to make the analogy work (the answer is to pay attention to any visible bits that carry a single/power. If this is obvious to you I suspect it was just because of how someone explained it to you, but if you're just brillianter than me then great!).
- quirkot 5y agoCan confirm using "plug" for both male and female ends interchangeably
- cdot2 5y agoWhich is clearly a more useable syntax
- lallysingh 5y agoThe plug is part of the cable, the socket is part of the device. The geometry of the connector itself is irrelevant.
- lotsofpulp 5y agoHow would one differentiate between the type of cable end that goes into this outlet? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-125-Volt-Locking-Grounding-Power-Inlet-Outlet-Gray-4716-CWP/301344359 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-125-Volt-Locking-...
- lallysingh 5y agoUse a second word to identify it. A "Foo plug" or if it's just the reverse of what you normally have, an "inverted plug."
- 5y ago
- emsign 5y agoSex isn't ewwww. It's a natural and everyday thing. I could ask the same question: What is wrong with you?
- lotsofpulp 5y agoI believe that question is also offensive to someone, somewhere, hence not allowed.
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoIt's not though, it's generally reserved for the bedroom and private spaces.
- lotsofpulp 5y agoPerforming it is. Talking about it is not. At least not when I was a kid, unless you were from some really socially conservative family.
- senortumnus 5y agoPuritanism is back, baby!
- 0-_-0 5y agoThat's a good point. As an exercise for the reader, let's try to write an outrage article from the opposing viewpoint: One of the shining examples of body shaming and societal opression of sexual expression is the recent push of changing the naming of audio plugs as "male" and "female", calling this naming "gross" and "problematic", as if genitalia was something to be ashamed of instead of treating it as a natural an everyday thing. OK I'm not very good at this, I'm sure someone from the Guardian could do a much better job.
- raxxorrax 5y agoLet's be honest. Sex is plenty ewww for US Americans that mostly are heading these language changes. It also feels like catholicism 2.0.
- mg794613 5y agoThew fact alone that sex is being put away as "ewwwww" shows where the real problem lies. Now master and slave was already somewhat ridiculous discussion. This discussion is really a flag waver, as there is no negative connotation with different sexes. Usually written by self acclaimed experts.
- lotsofpulp 5y agoI found some other interesting ones in the linked Google website: https://developers.google.com/style/inclusive-documentation https://developers.google.com/style/inclusive-documentation
- raxxorrax 5y agoThey have to give the inclusivity crowd some kind of work, but I think such rules are extremely counterproductive. Company likes speech codes and NDAs, but this is just idiotic.
- OJFord 5y agoNext up: AI cabling suggested to be sold in multi-packs only, so that you have spares if the first identifies differently to your requirement. Note that we already have 'couplers' that allow 'mating' female-female or male-male cable ends, so I think any argument that it's homophobic language or whatever is on thin ground. Really the only valid (if I can call it that) argument against it is the author's 'eewwww', but.. really?
- oxymoran 5y agoWhy is male and female terminology bad here? Are we disputing that men have penises and women have vaginas? That doesn’t imply that you can’t have a sex change. Do trans people not generally convert their genitalia to match the destination sex?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- MatthiasWandel 5y agoJust because something is true doesn't make it something we are allowed to acknowledge as being so.
- jfengel 5y agoNo, they don't. A few do, but the operation is expensive, painful, and not always satisfactory. Many will take hormones and some will have non-genital surgeries, but full gender confirmation surgery is for a minority. A great many, perhaps a majority, don't do anything to their bodies at all. They change their clothes, their pronouns, their hair, and their lifestyles, but have no surgery or medicines. They live in society as their gender, and anything that's seen only by the people they're intimate with are a subject for discussion between them. The result is that yes, there are a fair number of men with vaginas and women with penises. Which doesn't matter to you unless you're either their doctor or their lover, but it's important to recognize that it is in fact the case.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago> Which doesn't matter to you unless you're either their doctor or their lover, but it's important to recognize that it is in fact the case. So I guess you didn't hear what has happened at a Wi Spa [0] recently? If my daughter or wife want to use ladies-only changing rooms, it does matter to them that the other people are of the same sex. [0] https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/
- 5y ago
- oxymoran 5y agoIs plug and socket any better? Aren’t you assigning binary signal processing roles to a spectrum? What if they want to identify simply as connectors?
- raxxorrax 5y agoI think the underlying reaons is that the association is harmful alone, especially if the association contains somthing about sex. I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding. I don't like people that advocate for language regulation, because they cannot even justify their positions, they just try to force it on others and wonder about the negative feedback. "I doesn't cost much" is often an argument, but it remains silly from start.
- lallysingh 5y agoWell said: "To put it more simply – neutral language is always better for technical terminology, because it’s clearer, more accessible to more people, and includes the people who provide the talent and skills that make industries and technologies work. End of story."
- MatthiasWandel 5y agoPlug/socket terminology is not necessarily the same as male/female terminology. The socket can be male, if it is the one with the metal pins. The power connector on the back of a PC is a good example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_connectors_and_fasteners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_connectors_and_faste... Of course, people aren't necessarily using the terminology completely correctly as it is. And then there's the connectors on fancy RF equipment that can assume either role!
- OJFord 5y agoThis is totally off-topic, I'm just startled (I don't know why, esp. knowing you worked at RIM) to see your username here! I recently discovered your channel & site (via Marius Hornberger's) and have had hours of entertainment 'binge-watching' through the entire back catalogue (nearly finished, sadly) - very many thanks. To anyone else - wholeheartedly recommend woodgears.ca & https://www.youtube.com/c/Matthiaswandel/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/Matthiaswandel/videos. The former's been discussed a few times too: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=woodgears.ca&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... (But again, because it's of general HN-type engineering-y interest - not all 'just' woodworking - not because it has any relevance to this particular submission.)
- JoBrad 5y agoI was informally taught that a plug goes into a socket. Cables and adapters commonly have the same connector on each end, making the plug/socket terminology even less descriptive of the connecting formats.
- timw4mail 5y agoInny and Outy?
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y agoI believe the title of this Wikipedia article is wrong. When we started replacing the word "sex" with "gender" a few years ago, we were careful to differentiate both uses. But a few years later some people started to feel like "gender" is the new politically-correct word for "sex". It is not: these two have very distinct uses, and using "gender" for connectors is ridiculous because - as far as we can tell - they have no social identity (yet!).
- denton-scratch 5y agoOh dear. The distinction between sex and gender again. Back in the days of RS232, I owned a cable known as a "gender-bender". This was long before the days of Boy George. It was 8" long, and had a female DB-25 connector on each end. These things were also known as "eight-inch couplers", a term into which you could also read sexual connotations.
- formerly_proven 5y agoAs an ESL person "plug and socket" only seems marginally less sexually-connotated than "male and female bits".
- gswdh 5y agoThis is utterly ridiculous. These opinions indulge the sexist behaviour/actions of a few people by confirming any sexism that might exist. Men and women are equal, sex is a wonderful thing. There’s nothing wrong with being male or female or whatever you wish to be.
- shmageggy 5y agoAre the scare quotes necessary? In this case, they are somewhat misleading, as it's not the industry group (Professional Audio Manufacturers Alliance) that called the changes obvious, but rather this particular article.
- nanis 5y agoI grew up with _fiş_ and _priz_. Presumably, they are words that were borrowed in to Turkish from French. To this day, I cannot remember which is which and I do not know the original French spellings. According to Google translate, _fiş_ is "prise de courant" so what the heck is _priz_ then? Anyway, the point is, "male" and "female" made immediate sense. "plug" and "socket" don't seem to be exact analogues. When I think of a socket, I think more of things that are more permanent things like wall sockets or sockets on actual computers etc. Is there any reason to assume that all such things will always be receptacles? When I look at this picture[1], I see a set of "female" sockets next to a "male" socket using the disfavored terminology. As English is my second language, I do not know whether I should refer to the one that is "male" as a plug. Another aversion I have to the general tendency to changing language by decree is the fact that I experienced the linguistic impoverishment visited upon the Turkish language as a result of the 20th century effort to remove words of Arabic and Farsi origin and somehow arrive at a "pure" language. Such efforts rarely lead to where their designers want them to go. [1]: https://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/08/inlet-next-to-outlet.jpg https://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/08/inlet...
- throwaddzuzxd 5y ago> To this day, I cannot remember which is which and I do not know the original French spellings. According to Google translate, _fiş_ is "prise de courant" so what the heck is _priz_ then? _priz_ is "prise" (socket). _fiş_ is "fiche" (plug). The thing is that both can be either male or female. > When I think of a socket, I think more of things that are more permanent things like wall sockets or sockets on actual computers That's definitely the case. A "prise" is a wall socket and a "fiche" is on a wire. I believe it's the actual definition of the terms.