7 ms·

No, you can't just move - the US collects taxes from citizens even if they live and work outside of its borders. You could renounce your citizenship, perhaps, I

by Sacho 5y ago

No, you can't just move - the US collects taxes from citizens even if they live and work outside of its borders. You could renounce your citizenship, perhaps, I don't really know if/how that works.

XorNot 5y ago
If you feel so compelled to remain a US citizen that you don't want to renounce your citizenship, then again, you are choosing to pay the costs expected of being a US citizen.
- unishark 5y ago
  And what if no other country wants to accept you? Perhaps you have leprosy or advocate crazy political views or something. When someone immigrates illegally as a child we don't dare kick them out because that would be evil and cruel, though their country of origin would accept them back. But if you're just born here, with even fewer options, the logic gets flipped on its head and you're supposed to accept the social contract under total duress. As for McAfee, I would guess he did explore his legal options and they were probably no easier to swallow than the path he took. E.g. personal bankruptcy if he could even afford the taxes before he would be allowed to renounce.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    I don't know what you're expecting to accomplish as a rugged individualist if you're incapable of holding your own land against more organized outside forces.
    - jl2718 5y ago
      The only thing ‘outside forces’ want the land for, is the right to tax the inhabitants.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    Huh. Both "welcome newcomers" and "denounce those who leave" are norms. That's interesting.
    - unishark 5y ago
      Is that sarcasm? I don't know many people who'd describe the US immigration system as welcoming. But sure, hypocrisy is often the result of nice consistent reasoning. Bend the law in favor of those we want to favor and against those we want to disfavor. Goals like integrity and fairness require a more consistent process however.
      - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        Not sarcasm. More a thought about "ratchet" dynamics, memes, and Markov chains, with some anthropologically-flavored cynicism thrown in. If you're a meme named "B", and you can make P(A -> B) >> P(B -> A), then you're going to have more mind-babies. The steady state distribution will have more "B". So norms that favor A -> B over B -> A are interesting. Not sure if "meme" (US civil religion) or "organization" (US government) is the better description of the actor here. Also a thought about how apparent inconsistencies, or hypocrisy, can sometimes be explained by finding an underlying true "motive" that explains the various "inconsistent" behaviors. (One example: People who are liberal in their adopted country but conservative in their home country, can be understood as simply being self-interested.) Though in this case the "actor" is not really a person, but an organization or memeplex. > I don't know many people who'd describe the US immigration system as welcoming. That's a fair point, which undermines the idea. Well, it's debatable, but I get what you mean. Yes: The (blue-state) norms ("welcome everyone!") don't match the reality (actually it's pretty hard). Say, if you're a high-skilled student from India you wait years in a queue; that doesn't seem particularly "welcoming". (On the other hand, it's easy to win the visa lottery if you're from Kazakhstan. I digress.) On a relative scale we might still call the US welcoming though; its identity is much more built around immigration than other countries' identities are, citizenship requirements are much lower than many other "developed" countries, and even the language -- a mishmash of Romance and Germanic, with a phonetic alphabet, inherited from a trading empire -- is easy to use at a basic level (though its inconsistencies do pose problems for mastery), which again helps spread/assimilation. And in the US you at least can't openly act like your country represents a specific genetic/ethnic group (unlike in many other countries, where that identification is tacitly and unapologetically assumed). It's the "cultural/mimetic dynamics" aspect that was interesting. The "P(A -> B) >> P(B -> A)" thing. That this is additionally connected to tax revenue is also interesting. Money enters. Which is another fascinating subject. These things -- populations, memes, capital flows, births, deaths, conversions -- all flow and swirl and transmutate around, like the weather. I am on the lookout for absorbing states.
- 84100 5y ago
  Even if you renounce citizenship, you still pay exit taxes..

by Sacho 5y ago

No, you can't just move - the US collects taxes from citizens even if they live and work outside of its borders. You could renounce your citizenship, perhaps, I don't really know if/how that works.

XorNot 5y ago

If you feel so compelled to remain a US citizen that you don't want to renounce your citizenship, then again, you are choosing to pay the costs expected of being a US citizen.

unishark 5y ago
And what if no other country wants to accept you? Perhaps you have leprosy or advocate crazy political views or something. When someone immigrates illegally as a child we don't dare kick them out because that would be evil and cruel, though their country of origin would accept them back. But if you're just born here, with even fewer options, the logic gets flipped on its head and you're supposed to accept the social contract under total duress. As for McAfee, I would guess he did explore his legal options and they were probably no easier to swallow than the path he took. E.g. personal bankruptcy if he could even afford the taxes before he would be allowed to renounce.
- XorNot 5y ago
  I don't know what you're expecting to accomplish as a rugged individualist if you're incapable of holding your own land against more organized outside forces.
  - jl2718 5y ago
    The only thing ‘outside forces’ want the land for, is the right to tax the inhabitants.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  Huh. Both "welcome newcomers" and "denounce those who leave" are norms. That's interesting.
  - unishark 5y ago
    Is that sarcasm? I don't know many people who'd describe the US immigration system as welcoming. But sure, hypocrisy is often the result of nice consistent reasoning. Bend the law in favor of those we want to favor and against those we want to disfavor. Goals like integrity and fairness require a more consistent process however.
    - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
      Not sarcasm. More a thought about "ratchet" dynamics, memes, and Markov chains, with some anthropologically-flavored cynicism thrown in. If you're a meme named "B", and you can make P(A -> B) >> P(B -> A), then you're going to have more mind-babies. The steady state distribution will have more "B". So norms that favor A -> B over B -> A are interesting. Not sure if "meme" (US civil religion) or "organization" (US government) is the better description of the actor here. Also a thought about how apparent inconsistencies, or hypocrisy, can sometimes be explained by finding an underlying true "motive" that explains the various "inconsistent" behaviors. (One example: People who are liberal in their adopted country but conservative in their home country, can be understood as simply being self-interested.) Though in this case the "actor" is not really a person, but an organization or memeplex. > I don't know many people who'd describe the US immigration system as welcoming. That's a fair point, which undermines the idea. Well, it's debatable, but I get what you mean. Yes: The (blue-state) norms ("welcome everyone!") don't match the reality (actually it's pretty hard). Say, if you're a high-skilled student from India you wait years in a queue; that doesn't seem particularly "welcoming". (On the other hand, it's easy to win the visa lottery if you're from Kazakhstan. I digress.) On a relative scale we might still call the US welcoming though; its identity is much more built around immigration than other countries' identities are, citizenship requirements are much lower than many other "developed" countries, and even the language -- a mishmash of Romance and Germanic, with a phonetic alphabet, inherited from a trading empire -- is easy to use at a basic level (though its inconsistencies do pose problems for mastery), which again helps spread/assimilation. And in the US you at least can't openly act like your country represents a specific genetic/ethnic group (unlike in many other countries, where that identification is tacitly and unapologetically assumed). It's the "cultural/mimetic dynamics" aspect that was interesting. The "P(A -> B) >> P(B -> A)" thing. That this is additionally connected to tax revenue is also interesting. Money enters. Which is another fascinating subject. These things -- populations, memes, capital flows, births, deaths, conversions -- all flow and swirl and transmutate around, like the weather. I am on the lookout for absorbing states.
84100 5y ago
Even if you renounce citizenship, you still pay exit taxes..