7 ms·

I feel like most tech-workers can be divided into two camps: Type 1: "It's obvious that remote work is the future, and anyone who thinks otherwise is stuck in

I feel like most tech-workers can be divided into two camps: Type 1: "It's obvious that remote work is the future, and anyone who thinks otherwise is stuck in the past" Type 2: "Remote work is infinitely inferior to office work due to the lack of socialization/collaboration/food/etc" Evidently the leadership at Docker is type 1, based on their "step 4". The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist (see: any HN discussion thread about remote work)

sverhagen 5y ago
It's not that I can't fathom that the other one exists, or even that it would be attractive to significant parts of the population, it's that I can't fathom that I'd ever change my personal preference, no matter how much of the other one I get forcibly exposed to. So, I'm expecting a reality where, for workers with the luxury of this sort of choice, this will become an early "disqualifying question" while job hunting: are you remote or on-site? (It probably already is that disqualifying question, just not quite as prominently yet.)
- hallway_monitor 5y ago
  Maybe I'm just old but I want to share a space with the people I'm working with and, yes, it seems obviously superior to remote. I wouldn't say it was the deciding factor, but when I got an offer from a smaller place working in person, I took a significant pay cut to go back into a (very cool) office.
  - baron_harkonnen 5y ago
    I certainly hope you at least pay your coworkers the modicum of respect of getting vaccinated first [0]. There's a surprisingly large population in the tech community that want to follow your approach of "don't get vaccinated and hope everyone else does". I can respect that a bit if you at least want to continue to adhere to basic social distancing and pandemic safety guidelines. If I do return to an office it would certainly only be for companies that require a vaccine before returning to an office. [0]. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27570389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27570389
  - luffapi 5y ago
    I’m older and would never work in an office again. It feels like a lot of those who want to go back in the office want to do it for social support reasons (lonely, single, don’t get on with family…). The thing is having to be the social support for co-workers is one of the things that makes working in an office so horrible for many of us. It feels like a lot of people want to burden their co-workers with social roles that are better filled pretty much anywhere else.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      "burden their co-workers with social roles" Some folks are looking for new relationships, especially those just starting their career or moving to a new ciry. Ideally they find other like them, rather than 'burdening' people who don't care
      - luffapi 5y ago
        Cities offer many opportunities to socialize outside of work. Especially when you’re wfh and can go out and mingle with people as needed.
  - yellowfish 5y ago
    It depends on the work, there are a lot of dev jobs out there that are boring tech, boring co-workers, boring managers, boring problems
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > for workers with the luxury of this sort of choice, this will become an early "disqualifying question" while job hunting: are you remote or on-site? For companies that are strictly one or the other, yes, definitely. It already is.
- Ozzie_osman 5y ago
  I hire for a startup that was remote first before Covid. In the first conversation with any candidate, I always ask "have you worked remotely before or do you know what it's like? Are you confident you can both be happy and productive working remotely?"
rsynnott 5y ago
> The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist This bit is weird. I’m in the “I’ll never voluntarily take a remote job” camp, but… I get that some people like remote work, and that’s fine. Some people seem to be positively evangelical about it, though.
- hpoe 5y ago
  I am evangelical about it simply because my camp of remote first is not the default and as a result I have to make sure I am always pushing against in office, if I don't evangelize it hard I risk it not coming to pass. I also feel that many of the people that argue that they need the socialization that comes from being in the offive just really need to spend time outside of work finding a way to socialize and they could meet that need. As someone else pointed out tieing your friend circle to your employer seems like a bad move when the time comes to change employers.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    "Have you heard the good news about our lord and saviour 'never leaving the house'"? See, this is exactly what I mean.
  - nucleardog 5y ago
    This. I’ve been arguing for years that I can do my job effectively remotely and now that it’s proven and I’ve seen a drastic improvement in my mental and physical health I really feel like I need to fight against giving even an inch against the default to have a hope of landing somewhere in the middle. While I respect and understand (even if I disagree with) people that say they need an office, they’re just really not my concern right now. There will no doubt be office-only jobs for the foreseeable future if for no other reason than inertia. Without the fight, remote-first jobs won’t be there for those that want them.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    > I also feel that many of the people that argue that they need the socialization that comes from being in the offive just really need to spend time outside of work finding a way to socialize and they could meet that need. On this bit, some people find spending the day alone difficult, even if they have social outlets outside work. This shouldn't be surprising; historically the vast majority of people see other people during the working day. Being completely alone for minimum eight hours a day (and in practice more; the evidence is that people tend to work longer hours when WFH) is not a particularly normal human behavior and many people don't deal well with it. Again, it works for some people, and that's fine. What irritates me is people (rather dishonestly IMO; they don't really believe this generally) pushing the line that it works for everyone.
bookofsand 5y ago
Remote work has been around quite a while. Used to be called 'offshoring'. The main driver is raw economics: the price of tech labor is too high. 'Social distancing' is simply an excuse to push it into overdrive.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  This is my problem with it. I love my new life. Don't ever want to go back to the office. Actually I would. If I can stay out here in the burbs and work is just a 10 minute drive or bus ride from the school/home. But I hate city life so I have to live so far that the commute sucks. I totally get the offshoring thing tho. The only thing remotely (no pun intended) 'preventing' that is timezones. But once you offshore _all_ the jobs, timezone are much less of a problem. I hope they still would be enough of a problem that we can have the cake and eat it too.
  - thisarticle 5y ago
    At that point why not just ship the whole company off overseas?
- wpietri 5y ago
  To me they're very distinct. I'm part of an all-remote team, but we're all employees and we keep common core work hours so we can have lots of interactive time. I'm sure my employer saves some money on office space, but we also spend more on travel so we can get together in person regularly. Offshoring in my experience is a very different set of relationships. It tends to have a significant power differential and to be much more distant, both physically and emotionally.
  - toadi 5y ago
    I moved to a country where I need less money. My life style is actually much better while making a little bit less money then I did in my own country. That works for me and not for everyone that want to stay close to family or/and have kids. But remote working does. I spend more time with friends and my significant other then I did before. Because now I have more time to engage in social interactions I prefer. Work social interactions for me are just to a level of professional courtesy. It is more fun to interact with people outside of my field....
ItsMonkk 5y ago
Why not both? Long-term I want to live on a college campus(except it's filled with other like-minded adults) like environment where my peers are not my co-workers so if I switch jobs I don't lose contact with them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- scatters 5y ago
  Isn't that called a city?
  - ItsMonkk 5y ago
    The main distinction between a campus and a city is its ratio of shared spaces to private spaces. A campus has 10% private spaces and 90% shared spaces, a city has 90% private spaces and 10% shared spaces. They are completely flipped. Campuses are also built to be completely walk-able once you park on the outskirts.
benhoyt 5y ago
I'm a Type 1 & 2 combo. I currently work full-time at home (with Canonical, which has been "remote first" long before Covid) and I love the flexibility and the fact there's no commute, but I do miss the office interaction and being around people. I think my ideal would be 2-3 days a week at home, 2-3 in the office.
geoduck14 5y ago
> The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist Maybe I should speak up. I keep my mouth shut because I could go either way.
Teknoman117 5y ago
I wonder what the general split is. As a single person who does not have a family, working from home permanently sounds horrifically lonely. I only made it a month of solitude before I terminated my lease and moved back in with my parents (the rest of my siblings joined as well). I also have ADHD, and sharing a space for work and play has been terrible for my ability to focus. That being said, I totally understand the other viewpoint(s). I watched my father spend 3 hours in the car every day to commute to offices he hated for the majority of my childhood. He worked from home during the first few years after the dotcom crash, which was a wonderful opportunity for him to spend time with my siblings and I when we were young children. My response to seeing that as a kid was making the decision that I would do whatever I could to avoid commuting. Since I'm still single, this has meant living in an apartment a short walk from where I work. Admittedly, I'm lucky in the sense that the office is in a relatively suburban setting. We're outside the city, so it's not city life but it's not suburban sprawl hell either. Obviously the dynamic may change if I meet someone and have kids in the future and decide where the office is is not where we want to raise kids. We don't gain anything from just having a knee-jerk reaction to the opposite solution. You just have a different set of happy and unhappy people.
- kag0 5y ago
  I think you've answered your own question. People who feel positively about their home life are inclined to maximize it by working from home. People who feel negatively or have little home life are inclined to get out and seek social/private opportunities at or around the office. Note that feeling negatively or having little home life is meant to encompass a range of situations that don't necessarily mean someone has a bad private life or that they're unhappy with their private life.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    It doesn’t seem like it’s that simple. The fact that I enjoy my home life is precisely why I don’t want to work there. Maintaining an office space at home is a significant expense and I don’t hear much about tech employers paying for it.
tshaddox 5y ago
> Type 2: "Remote work is infinitely inferior to office work due to the lack of socialization/collaboration/food/etc" Or, ya know, just not wanting to either pay for an extra room at home or work 8+ hours a day in my bedroom.
- Galaxity 5y ago
  Yes, I don't care about any of that. It's as simple as: do I have a nice house with multiple bedrooms I can use as an office and a garden to work in? Hell yeah I'll work from home. Do I have a studio or one bedroom? Hell no, I won't work from home.
cdrini 5y ago
I think most people actually fall somewhere in between and understand both. I think the people who are at the extremes are the loudest because they feel passionately. Don't let the internet convince you that everything is 100% polarised and black and white. It's a biased lens.
- luffapi 5y ago
  I can’t speak for the pro-office crowd, but as a strong wfh advocate, I’ve been extra loud about this because for the first time in my life, there’s a dramatic phase shift that looks like it can change our global work habits for the better. We’re also seeing a lot of execs try to wind the clock back and force people back into the office, so it feels like there’s a legitimate and yet to be decided battle taking place.
stadium 5y ago
There a middle ground. As a remote worker I have to seek out opportunities for socialization outside of work. I miss being around actual live humans (besides my immediate family). And at the same time, I'm not willing to lose 1-1.5 hours a day commuting. I don't need or want to spend that much time commuting just to socialize and collaborate. I'd rather socialize with people that share a common non-work interest or hobby after spending all day working.
chippiewill 5y ago
> The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist I don't think this is true. That being said, I think the most vocal are going to be the most evangelical (for either option).
a_imho 5y ago
Office vs remote is a red herring. The fundamental question is whether an employee should be free to pick their preferred workplace. Is is a superset of regular office work.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
If I was unmarried and in my 20's I definitely pick Type 2. Now I am married, live in a nice house, picking Type 1 is a no-brainer. Coupled with the fact that in 2019 I was working in an office sat next to someone I absolutely detested, and realising that I was spending more waking hours with this hateful person then I was with my own family I will never want to go back to an office. I imagine my career won't be as fruitful, but then again I get to take my daughter to school.
bradleyjg 5y ago
It remains to be seen what will actually work in the long run. It’s been a very good demonstration of confirmation bias. I’ve seen very few posts that say I love working at home but it just doesn’t work as well and I can’t see it lasting or vice versa. Preferences and predictions seem to like up almost perfectly.
phendrenad2 5y ago
I'm in the #2 category, but I'm dreading going back into the office. I just know they're going to pack us in like sardines. C'est la vie, I guess.

sverhagen 5y ago

It's not that I can't fathom that the other one exists, or even that it would be attractive to significant parts of the population, it's that I can't fathom that I'd ever change my personal preference, no matter how much of the other one I get forcibly exposed to. So, I'm expecting a reality where, for workers with the luxury of this sort of choice, this will become an early "disqualifying question" while job hunting: are you remote or on-site? (It probably already is that disqualifying question, just not quite as prominently yet.)

hallway_monitor 5y ago
Maybe I'm just old but I want to share a space with the people I'm working with and, yes, it seems obviously superior to remote. I wouldn't say it was the deciding factor, but when I got an offer from a smaller place working in person, I took a significant pay cut to go back into a (very cool) office.
- baron_harkonnen 5y ago
  I certainly hope you at least pay your coworkers the modicum of respect of getting vaccinated first [0]. There's a surprisingly large population in the tech community that want to follow your approach of "don't get vaccinated and hope everyone else does". I can respect that a bit if you at least want to continue to adhere to basic social distancing and pandemic safety guidelines. If I do return to an office it would certainly only be for companies that require a vaccine before returning to an office. [0]. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27570389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27570389
- luffapi 5y ago
  I’m older and would never work in an office again. It feels like a lot of those who want to go back in the office want to do it for social support reasons (lonely, single, don’t get on with family…). The thing is having to be the social support for co-workers is one of the things that makes working in an office so horrible for many of us. It feels like a lot of people want to burden their co-workers with social roles that are better filled pretty much anywhere else.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "burden their co-workers with social roles" Some folks are looking for new relationships, especially those just starting their career or moving to a new ciry. Ideally they find other like them, rather than 'burdening' people who don't care
    - luffapi 5y ago
      Cities offer many opportunities to socialize outside of work. Especially when you’re wfh and can go out and mingle with people as needed.
- yellowfish 5y ago
  It depends on the work, there are a lot of dev jobs out there that are boring tech, boring co-workers, boring managers, boring problems
rsynnott 5y ago
> for workers with the luxury of this sort of choice, this will become an early "disqualifying question" while job hunting: are you remote or on-site? For companies that are strictly one or the other, yes, definitely. It already is.
Ozzie_osman 5y ago
I hire for a startup that was remote first before Covid. In the first conversation with any candidate, I always ask "have you worked remotely before or do you know what it's like? Are you confident you can both be happy and productive working remotely?"

rsynnott 5y ago

> The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist This bit is weird. I’m in the “I’ll never voluntarily take a remote job” camp, but… I get that some people like remote work, and that’s fine. Some people seem to be positively evangelical about it, though.

hpoe 5y ago
I am evangelical about it simply because my camp of remote first is not the default and as a result I have to make sure I am always pushing against in office, if I don't evangelize it hard I risk it not coming to pass. I also feel that many of the people that argue that they need the socialization that comes from being in the offive just really need to spend time outside of work finding a way to socialize and they could meet that need. As someone else pointed out tieing your friend circle to your employer seems like a bad move when the time comes to change employers.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  "Have you heard the good news about our lord and saviour 'never leaving the house'"? See, this is exactly what I mean.
- nucleardog 5y ago
  This. I’ve been arguing for years that I can do my job effectively remotely and now that it’s proven and I’ve seen a drastic improvement in my mental and physical health I really feel like I need to fight against giving even an inch against the default to have a hope of landing somewhere in the middle. While I respect and understand (even if I disagree with) people that say they need an office, they’re just really not my concern right now. There will no doubt be office-only jobs for the foreseeable future if for no other reason than inertia. Without the fight, remote-first jobs won’t be there for those that want them.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > I also feel that many of the people that argue that they need the socialization that comes from being in the offive just really need to spend time outside of work finding a way to socialize and they could meet that need. On this bit, some people find spending the day alone difficult, even if they have social outlets outside work. This shouldn't be surprising; historically the vast majority of people see other people during the working day. Being completely alone for minimum eight hours a day (and in practice more; the evidence is that people tend to work longer hours when WFH) is not a particularly normal human behavior and many people don't deal well with it. Again, it works for some people, and that's fine. What irritates me is people (rather dishonestly IMO; they don't really believe this generally) pushing the line that it works for everyone.

bookofsand 5y ago

Remote work has been around quite a while. Used to be called 'offshoring'. The main driver is raw economics: the price of tech labor is too high. 'Social distancing' is simply an excuse to push it into overdrive.

tharkun__ 5y ago
This is my problem with it. I love my new life. Don't ever want to go back to the office. Actually I would. If I can stay out here in the burbs and work is just a 10 minute drive or bus ride from the school/home. But I hate city life so I have to live so far that the commute sucks. I totally get the offshoring thing tho. The only thing remotely (no pun intended) 'preventing' that is timezones. But once you offshore _all_ the jobs, timezone are much less of a problem. I hope they still would be enough of a problem that we can have the cake and eat it too.
- thisarticle 5y ago
  At that point why not just ship the whole company off overseas?
wpietri 5y ago
To me they're very distinct. I'm part of an all-remote team, but we're all employees and we keep common core work hours so we can have lots of interactive time. I'm sure my employer saves some money on office space, but we also spend more on travel so we can get together in person regularly. Offshoring in my experience is a very different set of relationships. It tends to have a significant power differential and to be much more distant, both physically and emotionally.
- toadi 5y ago
  I moved to a country where I need less money. My life style is actually much better while making a little bit less money then I did in my own country. That works for me and not for everyone that want to stay close to family or/and have kids. But remote working does. I spend more time with friends and my significant other then I did before. Because now I have more time to engage in social interactions I prefer. Work social interactions for me are just to a level of professional courtesy. It is more fun to interact with people outside of my field....

ItsMonkk 5y ago

Why not both? Long-term I want to live on a college campus(except it's filled with other like-minded adults) like environment where my peers are not my co-workers so if I switch jobs I don't lose contact with them.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
scatters 5y ago
Isn't that called a city?
- ItsMonkk 5y ago
  The main distinction between a campus and a city is its ratio of shared spaces to private spaces. A campus has 10% private spaces and 90% shared spaces, a city has 90% private spaces and 10% shared spaces. They are completely flipped. Campuses are also built to be completely walk-able once you park on the outskirts.

benhoyt 5y ago

I'm a Type 1 & 2 combo. I currently work full-time at home (with Canonical, which has been "remote first" long before Covid) and I love the flexibility and the fact there's no commute, but I do miss the office interaction and being around people. I think my ideal would be 2-3 days a week at home, 2-3 in the office.

geoduck14 5y ago

> The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist Maybe I should speak up. I keep my mouth shut because I could go either way.

Teknoman117 5y ago

I wonder what the general split is. As a single person who does not have a family, working from home permanently sounds horrifically lonely. I only made it a month of solitude before I terminated my lease and moved back in with my parents (the rest of my siblings joined as well). I also have ADHD, and sharing a space for work and play has been terrible for my ability to focus. That being said, I totally understand the other viewpoint(s). I watched my father spend 3 hours in the car every day to commute to offices he hated for the majority of my childhood. He worked from home during the first few years after the dotcom crash, which was a wonderful opportunity for him to spend time with my siblings and I when we were young children. My response to seeing that as a kid was making the decision that I would do whatever I could to avoid commuting. Since I'm still single, this has meant living in an apartment a short walk from where I work. Admittedly, I'm lucky in the sense that the office is in a relatively suburban setting. We're outside the city, so it's not city life but it's not suburban sprawl hell either. Obviously the dynamic may change if I meet someone and have kids in the future and decide where the office is is not where we want to raise kids. We don't gain anything from just having a knee-jerk reaction to the opposite solution. You just have a different set of happy and unhappy people.

kag0 5y ago
I think you've answered your own question. People who feel positively about their home life are inclined to maximize it by working from home. People who feel negatively or have little home life are inclined to get out and seek social/private opportunities at or around the office. Note that feeling negatively or having little home life is meant to encompass a range of situations that don't necessarily mean someone has a bad private life or that they're unhappy with their private life.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  It doesn’t seem like it’s that simple. The fact that I enjoy my home life is precisely why I don’t want to work there. Maintaining an office space at home is a significant expense and I don’t hear much about tech employers paying for it.

tshaddox 5y ago

> Type 2: "Remote work is infinitely inferior to office work due to the lack of socialization/collaboration/food/etc" Or, ya know, just not wanting to either pay for an extra room at home or work 8+ hours a day in my bedroom.

Galaxity 5y ago
Yes, I don't care about any of that. It's as simple as: do I have a nice house with multiple bedrooms I can use as an office and a garden to work in? Hell yeah I'll work from home. Do I have a studio or one bedroom? Hell no, I won't work from home.

cdrini 5y ago

I think most people actually fall somewhere in between and understand both. I think the people who are at the extremes are the loudest because they feel passionately. Don't let the internet convince you that everything is 100% polarised and black and white. It's a biased lens.

luffapi 5y ago
I can’t speak for the pro-office crowd, but as a strong wfh advocate, I’ve been extra loud about this because for the first time in my life, there’s a dramatic phase shift that looks like it can change our global work habits for the better. We’re also seeing a lot of execs try to wind the clock back and force people back into the office, so it feels like there’s a legitimate and yet to be decided battle taking place.

stadium 5y ago

There a middle ground. As a remote worker I have to seek out opportunities for socialization outside of work. I miss being around actual live humans (besides my immediate family). And at the same time, I'm not willing to lose 1-1.5 hours a day commuting. I don't need or want to spend that much time commuting just to socialize and collaborate. I'd rather socialize with people that share a common non-work interest or hobby after spending all day working.

chippiewill 5y ago

> The part I find particularly interesting about this trend is that both camps can't seem to fathom that the other could possibly exist I don't think this is true. That being said, I think the most vocal are going to be the most evangelical (for either option).

a_imho 5y ago

Office vs remote is a red herring. The fundamental question is whether an employee should be free to pick their preferred workplace. Is is a superset of regular office work.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

If I was unmarried and in my 20's I definitely pick Type 2. Now I am married, live in a nice house, picking Type 1 is a no-brainer. Coupled with the fact that in 2019 I was working in an office sat next to someone I absolutely detested, and realising that I was spending more waking hours with this hateful person then I was with my own family I will never want to go back to an office. I imagine my career won't be as fruitful, but then again I get to take my daughter to school.

bradleyjg 5y ago

It remains to be seen what will actually work in the long run. It’s been a very good demonstration of confirmation bias. I’ve seen very few posts that say I love working at home but it just doesn’t work as well and I can’t see it lasting or vice versa. Preferences and predictions seem to like up almost perfectly.

phendrenad2 5y ago

I'm in the #2 category, but I'm dreading going back into the office. I just know they're going to pack us in like sardines. C'est la vie, I guess.