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Oh for crying out loud. Someone got angry at a picture of an ex-girlfriend with "bitch" on her face -- WHY? It might be a bit distasteful, but what the fucking

Oh for crying out loud. Someone got angry at a picture of an ex-girlfriend with "bitch" on her face -- WHY? It might be a bit distasteful, but what the fucking hell is offensive about it unless you were the ex? If I put a photo up of my ex-boss and it had the word "cock" on his face would males in the crowd start getting really offended and start throwing bottles at stage? If so, I think the problem is in the audience. This has nothing to do with sexism.

LaGrange 15y ago
Oh my god. You are joking, right? You're actually getting it, but trying to portray a kind of disgusting sexist male that would say that? The slide is offensive, because it relates to objectification of women. It's just that. It would be hard to explain it to you, and, actually, the only reason you don't get it is because you don't want to get it, so I won't even bother for your sake. But, like, I don't think things like what you said should be left without an answer, because some innocent might stumble upon them and think no one objects. It's because of the way women are treated. It's because of the prevalence of violence and rape. It's because a dude probably won't be battered and raped due to him being an ex, but it's something that happens to women all the time. It's something that's hard to grasp for most dudes, including you. It does relate to a form of violence/abuse, and only way you can reject that is by being intentionally obtuse. Oh, and if he put up his previous boss face with the word "cock" on it, he would stand a serious chance of being fired. He put up his ex's (or just random woman's, still relevant) photo with a word "bitch" on it and he still has a job. And the job lets him speak publicly. What. The. Hell.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Tichy 15y ago
  I think it is inappropriate to call people names in public. But to be honest your rant is a bit over the top in my mind. It's not objectification, rape, slavery or whatever. It was just somebody calling somebody else names in public. ("Cock" on the boss picture would be just as inappropriate).
  - cipherpunk 15y ago
    It is inappropriate to call people names in public. It is distasteful. What this isn't is sexism, and it's certainly not offensive to the entire female gender.
    - Tichy 15y ago
      That's what I said, I think?
      - cipherpunk 15y ago
        Indeed. I wasn't offering a dissenting view, just reiterating that this isn't sexist. Apologies for confusion :)
    - hallmark 15y ago
      "Bitch" is a derogatory term toward women. Is that still under debate? Would you be able to say "bitch" in front of your mother and not feel uncomfortable?
      - Tichy 15y ago
        I think the idea of swearwords in general is to be derogatory. Would you be comfortable saying "shitface" in front of your mother? I am not a native speaker, but I think "bitch" is actually just the word for a female dog. What makes it a swear word is in the imagination and value system of the receiver. It would probably be wise to never use derogatory words for other people in general. But that doesn't seem the way the human psyche is set up.
- guelo 15y ago
  If I really hate my ex girlfriend and think she is a horrible evil woman, what would be a good biting derogatory word to use that would connotate "awful female" without other women seeing it as an attack on the entire gender?
  - almost 15y ago
    Why does the word need to indicate that she is a she? Do you think her awfulnes and femaleness are connected?
    - bluedanieru 15y ago
      It could be that her awfulness has a female quality to it rather than a gender-neutral or male one, in which case a female-specific insult could be appropriate (to the extent any insult would be appropriate to the listener, that is - the tone of this discussion is quickly heading toward the case where it is not appropriate to insult people at all, ever).
      - LaGrange 15y ago
        Female quality of the awfulness? You know, why it's mostly okay for you to decide against continuing a relationship if some physical quality of your partner disturbs you beyond the point when you can deal with it. It's sad but it happens. But I can't really imagine when such a situation would qualify someone as a horrible person. And, I think that it's okay to insult people, for example it's okay to call someone who assigns "femininity" to character flaws a male chauvinistic pig.
        cipherpunk 15y ago
        rolleyes
        bluedanieru 15y ago
        And what is it about my chauvinism that is peculiarly masculine?
        15y ago
- cipherpunk 15y ago
  Nothing I said in my comment was sexist, and calling me disgusting is utterly uncalled for. What's your problem exactly? How do you link the word "bitch" to rape and battery? How do you differentiate the fact that this was an ex girlfriend to the situation with an ex boss? What does any of this have to do with work standards? You just come across as bitter and incredibly rude. Sort it out.
- neutronicus 15y ago
  http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122
  - owenmarshall 15y ago
    ESR denies every privilege under the sun? I'm shocked. /s
  - LaGrange 15y ago
    Yes, ESR is annoying, nothing new. Also, wow, did he do a strawman, haha. The actual claim is "your refusal to acknowledge "racism, sexism, homophobia, oppression" (BTW, ESR fails@interpunction, haha) when presented with those makes you a racist/sexist/homophobe". With opression it's a little different, because you can be an opressor even if you don't want to. Yeah, that's not fair, tough luck, that's how privilege works. http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-twisty-way/men-2/ http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-t... <- here, I have my authority, and my authority is better than yours because she has a cool nickname, duh. The site also has a reading list, BTW.
    - neutronicus 15y ago
      You called the guy disgusting, and proceeded to obliquely tar him with the same brush as rapists and wifebeaters. Your rhetoric is over-the-top, and discredits you. (Note: I'll readily concede that the presenter is ... not the sort of person with whom I'd like to associate. Perhaps all the way to not doing business with him.)
    - orangecat 15y ago
      With opression it's a little different, because you can be an opressor even if you don't want to. Yeah, that's not fair, tough luck, that's how privilege works. A perfect illustration of ESR's point.
- fiblye 15y ago
  I really don't get the connections you're making. Not at all. Sure, it was pointless to put the slide up there, but nobody was physically, mentally, or emotionally harmed aside from unrelated third parties that are overly-sensitive to insults that aren't being thrown at them. And don't pretend that men aren't ever the victims of an abusive relationship or rape. "Bitch" doesn't in any way involve rape or violence. At all. It's just a term that's mostly applied to certain females that did something to really piss a person off. Males get terms like "bastard" and "faggot" thrown at them whenever they piss someone off, yet nobody ties that to prison rape.
- orangecat 15y ago
  The slide is offensive Agreed. because it relates to objectification of women. Assumes facts not in evidence. He doesn't like one particular woman; this doesn't generalize to demeaning all women.
petercooper 15y ago
It's about reality rather than logic or an ideal world. In certain company, any reference to the female gender that doesn't fall in close proximity to the words "empowering", "role model" or "inspirational" can be taken to be a slight on the gender and a demonstration of the speaker's disrespect for them. Note that I haven't shared whether I agree with this or not but.. it's how it is. And depending on how safe you want to play it, you choose your words accordingly :-) I used to be an idealist, acting as I thought the world should be (everyone equal, etc.) but business has been a lot better since I've acted how it is, which includes avoiding potentially negative references to any physical traits whatsoever. Think.. would the President use this on a slide? Why not?

LaGrange 15y ago

Oh my god. You are joking, right? You're actually getting it, but trying to portray a kind of disgusting sexist male that would say that? The slide is offensive, because it relates to objectification of women. It's just that. It would be hard to explain it to you, and, actually, the only reason you don't get it is because you don't want to get it, so I won't even bother for your sake. But, like, I don't think things like what you said should be left without an answer, because some innocent might stumble upon them and think no one objects. It's because of the way women are treated. It's because of the prevalence of violence and rape. It's because a dude probably won't be battered and raped due to him being an ex, but it's something that happens to women all the time. It's something that's hard to grasp for most dudes, including you. It does relate to a form of violence/abuse, and only way you can reject that is by being intentionally obtuse. Oh, and if he put up his previous boss face with the word "cock" on it, he would stand a serious chance of being fired. He put up his ex's (or just random woman's, still relevant) photo with a word "bitch" on it and he still has a job. And the job lets him speak publicly. What. The. Hell.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Tichy 15y ago
I think it is inappropriate to call people names in public. But to be honest your rant is a bit over the top in my mind. It's not objectification, rape, slavery or whatever. It was just somebody calling somebody else names in public. ("Cock" on the boss picture would be just as inappropriate).
- cipherpunk 15y ago
  It is inappropriate to call people names in public. It is distasteful. What this isn't is sexism, and it's certainly not offensive to the entire female gender.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    That's what I said, I think?
    - cipherpunk 15y ago
      Indeed. I wasn't offering a dissenting view, just reiterating that this isn't sexist. Apologies for confusion :)
  - hallmark 15y ago
    "Bitch" is a derogatory term toward women. Is that still under debate? Would you be able to say "bitch" in front of your mother and not feel uncomfortable?
    - Tichy 15y ago
      I think the idea of swearwords in general is to be derogatory. Would you be comfortable saying "shitface" in front of your mother? I am not a native speaker, but I think "bitch" is actually just the word for a female dog. What makes it a swear word is in the imagination and value system of the receiver. It would probably be wise to never use derogatory words for other people in general. But that doesn't seem the way the human psyche is set up.
guelo 15y ago
If I really hate my ex girlfriend and think she is a horrible evil woman, what would be a good biting derogatory word to use that would connotate "awful female" without other women seeing it as an attack on the entire gender?
- almost 15y ago
  Why does the word need to indicate that she is a she? Do you think her awfulnes and femaleness are connected?
  - bluedanieru 15y ago
    It could be that her awfulness has a female quality to it rather than a gender-neutral or male one, in which case a female-specific insult could be appropriate (to the extent any insult would be appropriate to the listener, that is - the tone of this discussion is quickly heading toward the case where it is not appropriate to insult people at all, ever).
    - LaGrange 15y ago
      Female quality of the awfulness? You know, why it's mostly okay for you to decide against continuing a relationship if some physical quality of your partner disturbs you beyond the point when you can deal with it. It's sad but it happens. But I can't really imagine when such a situation would qualify someone as a horrible person. And, I think that it's okay to insult people, for example it's okay to call someone who assigns "femininity" to character flaws a male chauvinistic pig.
      - cipherpunk 15y ago
        rolleyes
      - bluedanieru 15y ago
        And what is it about my chauvinism that is peculiarly masculine?
      - 15y ago
cipherpunk 15y ago
Nothing I said in my comment was sexist, and calling me disgusting is utterly uncalled for. What's your problem exactly? How do you link the word "bitch" to rape and battery? How do you differentiate the fact that this was an ex girlfriend to the situation with an ex boss? What does any of this have to do with work standards? You just come across as bitter and incredibly rude. Sort it out.
neutronicus 15y ago
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122
- owenmarshall 15y ago
  ESR denies every privilege under the sun? I'm shocked. /s
- LaGrange 15y ago
  Yes, ESR is annoying, nothing new. Also, wow, did he do a strawman, haha. The actual claim is "your refusal to acknowledge "racism, sexism, homophobia, oppression" (BTW, ESR fails@interpunction, haha) when presented with those makes you a racist/sexist/homophobe". With opression it's a little different, because you can be an opressor even if you don't want to. Yeah, that's not fair, tough luck, that's how privilege works. http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-twisty-way/men-2/ http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-t... <- here, I have my authority, and my authority is better than yours because she has a cool nickname, duh. The site also has a reading list, BTW.
  - neutronicus 15y ago
    You called the guy disgusting, and proceeded to obliquely tar him with the same brush as rapists and wifebeaters. Your rhetoric is over-the-top, and discredits you. (Note: I'll readily concede that the presenter is ... not the sort of person with whom I'd like to associate. Perhaps all the way to not doing business with him.)
  - orangecat 15y ago
    With opression it's a little different, because you can be an opressor even if you don't want to. Yeah, that's not fair, tough luck, that's how privilege works. A perfect illustration of ESR's point.
fiblye 15y ago
I really don't get the connections you're making. Not at all. Sure, it was pointless to put the slide up there, but nobody was physically, mentally, or emotionally harmed aside from unrelated third parties that are overly-sensitive to insults that aren't being thrown at them. And don't pretend that men aren't ever the victims of an abusive relationship or rape. "Bitch" doesn't in any way involve rape or violence. At all. It's just a term that's mostly applied to certain females that did something to really piss a person off. Males get terms like "bastard" and "faggot" thrown at them whenever they piss someone off, yet nobody ties that to prison rape.
orangecat 15y ago
The slide is offensive Agreed. because it relates to objectification of women. Assumes facts not in evidence. He doesn't like one particular woman; this doesn't generalize to demeaning all women.

petercooper 15y ago

It's about reality rather than logic or an ideal world. In certain company, any reference to the female gender that doesn't fall in close proximity to the words "empowering", "role model" or "inspirational" can be taken to be a slight on the gender and a demonstration of the speaker's disrespect for them. Note that I haven't shared whether I agree with this or not but.. it's how it is. And depending on how safe you want to play it, you choose your words accordingly :-) I used to be an idealist, acting as I thought the world should be (everyone equal, etc.) but business has been a lot better since I've acted how it is, which includes avoiding potentially negative references to any physical traits whatsoever. Think.. would the President use this on a slide? Why not?