5 ms·

20 years is a bit much IMO...5-10 tho, that sounds at least reasonable.

Spivak 5y ago
As long as it’s 5-10 years after the date the company last sold the device as new.
teh_klev 5y ago
I disagree, five to ten years is far too short. I have a couple of audio devices that are ~14 years old and working perfectly fine. If either of them broke then I'd want to repair them (unless of course the fault was fabulously catastrophic). Once upon a time even affordably priced equipment lasted way more than 5-10 years. Maybe it's a generational thing, due to my being on the wrong side of 50 :), but stuff used to be built to last for affordable money. Hell I'm still wearing the Seiko mechanical auto-wind watch I was given for my birthday in 1983, and it still (mostly) tells the right time and day. Twenty years should be a minimum.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I think past a certain point it's reasonable to expect that your repair operation may also involve some scrounging for the parts— for example, the classic frankenstein procedure where a laptop with a dead motherboard is married to another of the same model where the screen is cracked. I think for most electronics, past 5-10 years is pretty reasonable for this kind of thing. I mean, the GameCube came out in 2001-2002, and many circles now consider that to be a vintage/retro machine at this point. Would we really expect Nintendo to still be supplying repair shops with the full BOM of whatever's in there? Anyway, the real trick with this of course is forbidding the serial number based lockouts.
  - teh_klev 5y ago
    > the real trick with this of course is forbidding the serial number based lockouts. Yeah, that is just downright spiteful scumbaggery.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      I mean, they position it the same way— "we're protecting customers from those unscrupulous overseas ebay vendors who will sell them a half-capacity battery that they install and then forget about, later blaming the device and OEM for poor performance." But obviously that's super suspect when the end result is still granting themselves a razors-and-blades monopoly over key replacement parts.
- hughrr 5y ago
  I worked in the defence industry for a few years where they did this. I also have equipment that is nearly 50 years old in service now (electronic test gear). BUT the cost was astronomical as were the storage requirements for parts and the cost of the replacement parts. The oscilloscope I have (tek 7904) was released in 1972 and would cost about $100k now with the plugins I have in it. And that's because it was designed for repair. Versus a modern unit which costs around $5k, lasts 5 years and is disposable. Yeah that's not gonna wash. Also it actually requires some quite extreme skills looking after 40+ year old kit. What you end up with is a $7000 iPhone and a repair industry where min charge is $500 for some obscure part because the universe has moved on. Recycling and reuse is better and that's where we're heading. Even cars are going in that direction.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    So if I buy a keysight scope that thing will die quickly?
    - hughrr 5y ago
      Depends on which phase of the moon it is. Best to look at the total cost of ownership over the warranty period and see if you’re happy with the monthly total. Anything outside that is a bonus! Same applies to Apple. Keysight’s semi legendary reputation for reliability comes from the second hand market which has had all the lemons removed from the table. Their production reputation is “average” and their in warranty fees “surprising” (I’m still getting over having to pay for a new OLED display for a DMM that was 2 years old) Better buy Chinese these days and plan to throw it away.
      - noizejoy 5y ago
        And that disconnect between economics and what’s environmentally manageable is at the very heart of a lot of modern problems. I often wonder, if there will ever be a way to make that widening chasm disappear, other than going back to living in caves …
        5y ago
Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
I’m open to considering the nuance here. For a washing machine or refrigerator, I’d say twenty years is the minimum. For a phone or computer? I’d say at the very least five, but preferably ten years from the last sale of a new, used, or refurbished device sold by them or their authorized resellers. Require security updates for at least twice as long, or when the manufacturer can prove all devices are out of use.
- wiseleo 5y ago
  There should be a standard for replaceable boards for major appliances. Compressors in fridges and motors in washers ultimately do not change. The front interface changes but that's ultimately just programming the on/off cycle for that motor.

As long as it’s 5-10 years after the date the company last sold the device as new.

I disagree, five to ten years is far too short. I have a couple of audio devices that are ~14 years old and working perfectly fine. If either of them broke then I'd want to repair them (unless of course the fault was fabulously catastrophic). Once upon a time even affordably priced equipment lasted way more than 5-10 years. Maybe it's a generational thing, due to my being on the wrong side of 50 :), but stuff used to be built to last for affordable money. Hell I'm still wearing the Seiko mechanical auto-wind watch I was given for my birthday in 1983, and it still (mostly) tells the right time and day. Twenty years should be a minimum.

mikepurvis 5y ago
I think past a certain point it's reasonable to expect that your repair operation may also involve some scrounging for the parts— for example, the classic frankenstein procedure where a laptop with a dead motherboard is married to another of the same model where the screen is cracked. I think for most electronics, past 5-10 years is pretty reasonable for this kind of thing. I mean, the GameCube came out in 2001-2002, and many circles now consider that to be a vintage/retro machine at this point. Would we really expect Nintendo to still be supplying repair shops with the full BOM of whatever's in there? Anyway, the real trick with this of course is forbidding the serial number based lockouts.
- teh_klev 5y ago
  > the real trick with this of course is forbidding the serial number based lockouts. Yeah, that is just downright spiteful scumbaggery.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    I mean, they position it the same way— "we're protecting customers from those unscrupulous overseas ebay vendors who will sell them a half-capacity battery that they install and then forget about, later blaming the device and OEM for poor performance." But obviously that's super suspect when the end result is still granting themselves a razors-and-blades monopoly over key replacement parts.
hughrr 5y ago
I worked in the defence industry for a few years where they did this. I also have equipment that is nearly 50 years old in service now (electronic test gear). BUT the cost was astronomical as were the storage requirements for parts and the cost of the replacement parts. The oscilloscope I have (tek 7904) was released in 1972 and would cost about $100k now with the plugins I have in it. And that's because it was designed for repair. Versus a modern unit which costs around $5k, lasts 5 years and is disposable. Yeah that's not gonna wash. Also it actually requires some quite extreme skills looking after 40+ year old kit. What you end up with is a $7000 iPhone and a repair industry where min charge is $500 for some obscure part because the universe has moved on. Recycling and reuse is better and that's where we're heading. Even cars are going in that direction.
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  So if I buy a keysight scope that thing will die quickly?
  - hughrr 5y ago
    Depends on which phase of the moon it is. Best to look at the total cost of ownership over the warranty period and see if you’re happy with the monthly total. Anything outside that is a bonus! Same applies to Apple. Keysight’s semi legendary reputation for reliability comes from the second hand market which has had all the lemons removed from the table. Their production reputation is “average” and their in warranty fees “surprising” (I’m still getting over having to pay for a new OLED display for a DMM that was 2 years old) Better buy Chinese these days and plan to throw it away.
    - noizejoy 5y ago
      And that disconnect between economics and what’s environmentally manageable is at the very heart of a lot of modern problems. I often wonder, if there will ever be a way to make that widening chasm disappear, other than going back to living in caves …
      - 5y ago

Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago

I’m open to considering the nuance here. For a washing machine or refrigerator, I’d say twenty years is the minimum. For a phone or computer? I’d say at the very least five, but preferably ten years from the last sale of a new, used, or refurbished device sold by them or their authorized resellers. Require security updates for at least twice as long, or when the manufacturer can prove all devices are out of use.

wiseleo 5y ago
There should be a standard for replaceable boards for major appliances. Compressors in fridges and motors in washers ultimately do not change. The front interface changes but that's ultimately just programming the on/off cycle for that motor.