5 ms·

I work in high-end AV. Perceptually, in a good space, those fantastic speakers often do not make the sound people associate with "loud", no distortion, no top e

I work in high-end AV. Perceptually, in a good space, those fantastic speakers often do not make the sound people associate with "loud", no distortion, no top end becoming hissy, just the concert-level bass to clue you in to how loud it is. People who have paid a lot for their system want that "wow" factor that immediately makes anyone think it's loud. The other issue is that different listening material definitely needs different amplifier and processor settings - there is no setting that "just works". We find many customers do not wish to get engage with those settings these days.

smichel17 5y ago
As a very, very casual audiophile, I don't personally feel the need for new models all that much. I don't go crazy trying to fit speakers to rooms — that's going to change over time! So I'd put the speaker in whatever location sounds the best in that house, and I'm happy with that. I like the sound of old 60's-70's acoustic suspension speakers with large (11-12") woofers. In particular, I find them to produce a much more satisfying deep bass when played at low volumes. I won't say they're "the best", since I haven't had the chance to listen to much modern high-end equipment, but certainly they're good enough for me to be happy with. Currently listening on a pair of 1970 Advents (OLA), for the curious. I appreciate that passive speakers are nice. I prefer listening on the Polk T15's I own over the desktop speakers I have, a logitech Z323 paired with the subwoofer from a Z-2300, despite the superior bass of the latter. Anyway, my point is that I don't personally need all that much (expensive) innovation; I'd be pretty satisfied if these companies wanted to produce product lines that already exist (or bring back older designs, which are increasingly more expensive/difficult to find, these days. I admit to ignorance here, and I get that solid wood is expensive, but I have difficulty understanding why this type of speaker can't be manufactured and sold at a couple hundred bucks a pop, vs several thousands for the models the grandparent comment mentioned.
bayindirh 5y ago
As an audiophile (without the madness), I can understand you. On the other hand, with a pair of good speakers and a nice amplifier with bass, mid & treble knobs, you can almost dial the tone which's best for a genre. A 2x10 band eq is better, but I prefer to listen pure-flat instead. In my setup, only vinyl needs loudness + tone circuits, the rest is happy with pure flat. Of course music and sound is a subjective taste, but 90% of the road can be traveled with just basic, but good components IMHO.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  but 90% of the road can be traveled with just basic, but good components IMHO. Amen. No expert here but I've been in the hobby for a while and have demo'd some high end stuff at audio shows. I strongly believe a really good "90% of the way there" system can be put together for well under $500 retail, or even less if going DIY or used.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    High end stuff has no limits, there's always a better system in some feature/property. Also, when you start to upgrade something, there's chance of endless loops (these speakers needs better amps, which shows some defects of my DAC, etc.) So setting a limit, reaching it and leaving it there is good IMHO. I run an entry level HiFi CD player with iPod interface through a vintage amplifier to a pair of bookshelf style speakers (which are pretty big for their class though). If my friend is confusing whether his phone is ringing because a similar sound is present in the playing track, then it's good enough. Similarly, if you're enjoying the sound you're getting from your system, you've accomplished your goal IMHO. I'm neither looking for loudness, nor for that ethereal sound. If I can hear everything in relatively clear manner, and I'm enjoying it, that's it. I'd rather enjoy it instead of sweating over smallest details. For context: I used to play in orchestras.
  - growt 5y ago
    Can you give an example of such a <$500 system? I'm genuinely curious.
    - dagw 5y ago
      Lots and lots of variations. But basically get a $250-350 pair of speakers for a decent brand (Dali Spektor 1 or 2 are a good bet) and plug them into a $100-200 second hand amp and you've got a great set up. If you don't want to go second hand then Yamaha and Sony have some decent amps in this price range. Spend whatever you have left over on a second hand CD player or DAC for your phone, depending on what you want to use as a source.
    - 5y ago
Philip-J-Fry 5y ago
On the topic of speakers here, does anyone here feel like the Cinema does not offer the audio experience advertised? I've been to old cinemas and brand new cinemas with Dolby Atmos yet in each of them the audio is just absolute ass. Is this just my local cinemas or is this a common experience? You'd think that a cinema would know how to tune their speaker set up correctly. Yet even at a brand new cinema the audio is just blown out in loud scenes. Like they've got the speakers turned up too high.
Gauge_Irrahphe 5y ago
Bass distortion is the only big factor. Everybody knows it doesn't matter, but it's actually where distortion is the easiest to hear. Chinese manufacturers don't know, and do care, so even cheap USB speakers blow out of water the majority of even much more expensive products.
- DenTheRed 5y ago
  Do you have an example of some of these cheap USB speakers please?
  - Gauge_Irrahphe 5y ago
    https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0XS3Zr https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0XS3Zr They are a bit underpowered, rumble with Bluetooth, and you need to turn the bass and highs quite a bit down to make them sound flat, but I bet that something like 100x times more expensive studio speakers will be the cheapest setup that matches them in the clarity.
    - KozmoNau7 5y ago
      I have a hard time taking your recommendation seriously, unless you have never heard a good set of speakers in person. A pair of JBL 305P MkIIs will absolutely wipe the floor with discount speakers like those, with such a huge margin, that it's not even remotely fair. $300 for a pair, certain a lot less than 100x price difference.
      - Gauge_Irrahphe 5y ago
        You have not heard those, they absolutely do sound more precise than cheap studio monitors. I think they may actually be flat with both bass and treble all the way down, but then they just don't sound like loudspeakers at all.
        KozmoNau7 5y ago
        I have a very hard time believing that, especially considering the absolutely miniscule woofers, no tweeters and tiny cabinets. The marketing focuses mostly on "cool led lights" and "fashion design". Claiming that they sound better than studio monitors is an extraordinary claim, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of reviews available, and the only videos on Youtube are from people who bought them and basically go "yes, these make sound". Not a single actual review. The JBLs are some of the most well-regarded studio monitors, routinely besting competitors at four times the price. They are JBL's crowning achievement in sheer performance per dollar, no joke. I can only conclude that you have literally never heard a decent set of speakers in your life, or you're wasting everyone's time with an extremely low-effort troll.
KozmoNau7 5y ago
A well put-together powerful system with low distortion is quite an experience when you really crank the volume. It just gets bigger and bigger sounding but not really "loud" (ie. distorted), and loud clean sound is just a lot more satisfying and less fatiguing. It's all about headroom, dynamics and being able to move air. Audiophiles may laugh, but a speaker like the Cerwin-Vega XLS215 one of the best choices you can make for reasonably affordable speakers, provided you have the room for them. They do look somewhat low-rent, but CV have taken some important lessons from PA speakers to heart, so they're surprisingly efficient and have large drivers that can effortlessly move significant amounts of air. Combine them with a powerful amplifier with plenty of headroom and you have a setup that can handle serious dynamics with very low distortion, better than 99% of concerts I've attended[¤]. For an actual PA speaker that can do much of the same thing, the JBL SRX835 is a similar powerhouse, but it has horn-loaded midrange and tweeter drivers, for those who prefer that sound. They are also effortlessly dynamic and I want a pair for my living room, despite the very utilitarian looks. Unfortunately logistics and space constraints mean bookshelf speakers are the only practical setup in this apartment, so I picked ones that were as big as I could reasonably get away with, and supplement them with two reasonably well-hidden 12" subwoofers. I should have never sold my JBL 4410s, I'm sure I could have made space for them somehow. [¤] The best sound quality I have ever heard at a concert and honestly better than most home setups, was when Opeth played in DR Koncerthuset here in Copenhagen in 2016. The sound is always insanely good there, but the combination of prog metal, an outrageously well-designed acoustic space, a seriously impressive sound system and world-class people behind the scenes, elevated everything to a completely new level. It was the cleanest and most pristine amplified sound I have ever heard, and what really impressed me was how clean and deep the bass reproduction was, with absolutely no distortion or wooliness. It is my measuring stick that all other concerts are compared to.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
That reminds me of an Experience I had once at a former colleague. He was a bit of an audiophile, dj/producer and had e.g. added more insulation to his living room to not annoy the neighbours as much, and built his own speakers and record player. Anyway, something was playing, it was (sounded?) really quiet but it was crystal clear at the same time; normally I feel like I have to turn the volume up to hear the whole music.

smichel17 5y ago

As a very, very casual audiophile, I don't personally feel the need for new models all that much. I don't go crazy trying to fit speakers to rooms — that's going to change over time! So I'd put the speaker in whatever location sounds the best in that house, and I'm happy with that. I like the sound of old 60's-70's acoustic suspension speakers with large (11-12") woofers. In particular, I find them to produce a much more satisfying deep bass when played at low volumes. I won't say they're "the best", since I haven't had the chance to listen to much modern high-end equipment, but certainly they're good enough for me to be happy with. Currently listening on a pair of 1970 Advents (OLA), for the curious. I appreciate that passive speakers are nice. I prefer listening on the Polk T15's I own over the desktop speakers I have, a logitech Z323 paired with the subwoofer from a Z-2300, despite the superior bass of the latter. Anyway, my point is that I don't personally need all that much (expensive) innovation; I'd be pretty satisfied if these companies wanted to produce product lines that already exist (or bring back older designs, which are increasingly more expensive/difficult to find, these days. I admit to ignorance here, and I get that solid wood is expensive, but I have difficulty understanding why this type of speaker can't be manufactured and sold at a couple hundred bucks a pop, vs several thousands for the models the grandparent comment mentioned.

bayindirh 5y ago

As an audiophile (without the madness), I can understand you. On the other hand, with a pair of good speakers and a nice amplifier with bass, mid & treble knobs, you can almost dial the tone which's best for a genre. A 2x10 band eq is better, but I prefer to listen pure-flat instead. In my setup, only vinyl needs loudness + tone circuits, the rest is happy with pure flat. Of course music and sound is a subjective taste, but 90% of the road can be traveled with just basic, but good components IMHO.

JohnBooty 5y ago
but 90% of the road can be traveled with just basic, but good components IMHO. Amen. No expert here but I've been in the hobby for a while and have demo'd some high end stuff at audio shows. I strongly believe a really good "90% of the way there" system can be put together for well under $500 retail, or even less if going DIY or used.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  High end stuff has no limits, there's always a better system in some feature/property. Also, when you start to upgrade something, there's chance of endless loops (these speakers needs better amps, which shows some defects of my DAC, etc.) So setting a limit, reaching it and leaving it there is good IMHO. I run an entry level HiFi CD player with iPod interface through a vintage amplifier to a pair of bookshelf style speakers (which are pretty big for their class though). If my friend is confusing whether his phone is ringing because a similar sound is present in the playing track, then it's good enough. Similarly, if you're enjoying the sound you're getting from your system, you've accomplished your goal IMHO. I'm neither looking for loudness, nor for that ethereal sound. If I can hear everything in relatively clear manner, and I'm enjoying it, that's it. I'd rather enjoy it instead of sweating over smallest details. For context: I used to play in orchestras.
- growt 5y ago
  Can you give an example of such a <$500 system? I'm genuinely curious.
  - dagw 5y ago
    Lots and lots of variations. But basically get a $250-350 pair of speakers for a decent brand (Dali Spektor 1 or 2 are a good bet) and plug them into a $100-200 second hand amp and you've got a great set up. If you don't want to go second hand then Yamaha and Sony have some decent amps in this price range. Spend whatever you have left over on a second hand CD player or DAC for your phone, depending on what you want to use as a source.
  - 5y ago

Philip-J-Fry 5y ago

On the topic of speakers here, does anyone here feel like the Cinema does not offer the audio experience advertised? I've been to old cinemas and brand new cinemas with Dolby Atmos yet in each of them the audio is just absolute ass. Is this just my local cinemas or is this a common experience? You'd think that a cinema would know how to tune their speaker set up correctly. Yet even at a brand new cinema the audio is just blown out in loud scenes. Like they've got the speakers turned up too high.

Gauge_Irrahphe 5y ago

Bass distortion is the only big factor. Everybody knows it doesn't matter, but it's actually where distortion is the easiest to hear. Chinese manufacturers don't know, and do care, so even cheap USB speakers blow out of water the majority of even much more expensive products.

DenTheRed 5y ago
Do you have an example of some of these cheap USB speakers please?
- Gauge_Irrahphe 5y ago
  https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0XS3Zr https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0XS3Zr They are a bit underpowered, rumble with Bluetooth, and you need to turn the bass and highs quite a bit down to make them sound flat, but I bet that something like 100x times more expensive studio speakers will be the cheapest setup that matches them in the clarity.
  - KozmoNau7 5y ago
    I have a hard time taking your recommendation seriously, unless you have never heard a good set of speakers in person. A pair of JBL 305P MkIIs will absolutely wipe the floor with discount speakers like those, with such a huge margin, that it's not even remotely fair. $300 for a pair, certain a lot less than 100x price difference.
    - Gauge_Irrahphe 5y ago
      You have not heard those, they absolutely do sound more precise than cheap studio monitors. I think they may actually be flat with both bass and treble all the way down, but then they just don't sound like loudspeakers at all.
      - KozmoNau7 5y ago
        I have a very hard time believing that, especially considering the absolutely miniscule woofers, no tweeters and tiny cabinets. The marketing focuses mostly on "cool led lights" and "fashion design". Claiming that they sound better than studio monitors is an extraordinary claim, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of reviews available, and the only videos on Youtube are from people who bought them and basically go "yes, these make sound". Not a single actual review. The JBLs are some of the most well-regarded studio monitors, routinely besting competitors at four times the price. They are JBL's crowning achievement in sheer performance per dollar, no joke. I can only conclude that you have literally never heard a decent set of speakers in your life, or you're wasting everyone's time with an extremely low-effort troll.

KozmoNau7 5y ago

A well put-together powerful system with low distortion is quite an experience when you really crank the volume. It just gets bigger and bigger sounding but not really "loud" (ie. distorted), and loud clean sound is just a lot more satisfying and less fatiguing. It's all about headroom, dynamics and being able to move air. Audiophiles may laugh, but a speaker like the Cerwin-Vega XLS215 one of the best choices you can make for reasonably affordable speakers, provided you have the room for them. They do look somewhat low-rent, but CV have taken some important lessons from PA speakers to heart, so they're surprisingly efficient and have large drivers that can effortlessly move significant amounts of air. Combine them with a powerful amplifier with plenty of headroom and you have a setup that can handle serious dynamics with very low distortion, better than 99% of concerts I've attended[¤]. For an actual PA speaker that can do much of the same thing, the JBL SRX835 is a similar powerhouse, but it has horn-loaded midrange and tweeter drivers, for those who prefer that sound. They are also effortlessly dynamic and I want a pair for my living room, despite the very utilitarian looks. Unfortunately logistics and space constraints mean bookshelf speakers are the only practical setup in this apartment, so I picked ones that were as big as I could reasonably get away with, and supplement them with two reasonably well-hidden 12" subwoofers. I should have never sold my JBL 4410s, I'm sure I could have made space for them somehow. [¤] The best sound quality I have ever heard at a concert and honestly better than most home setups, was when Opeth played in DR Koncerthuset here in Copenhagen in 2016. The sound is always insanely good there, but the combination of prog metal, an outrageously well-designed acoustic space, a seriously impressive sound system and world-class people behind the scenes, elevated everything to a completely new level. It was the cleanest and most pristine amplified sound I have ever heard, and what really impressed me was how clean and deep the bass reproduction was, with absolutely no distortion or wooliness. It is my measuring stick that all other concerts are compared to.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

That reminds me of an Experience I had once at a former colleague. He was a bit of an audiophile, dj/producer and had e.g. added more insulation to his living room to not annoy the neighbours as much, and built his own speakers and record player. Anyway, something was playing, it was (sounded?) really quiet but it was crystal clear at the same time; normally I feel like I have to turn the volume up to hear the whole music.