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As soon as philosophy gets to even a fraction of the use mathematics has, then maybe it will be worth looking to for answers.

by wwrap 15y ago

philbarr 15y ago
I would rather people look to philosophy for answers to their intractable problems than religion.
- anamax 15y ago
  > I would rather people look to philosophy for answers to their intractable problems than religion. Religion ended slavery. (Yes, some religions advocated and supported slavery - they lost to the ones that didn't.) What has philosophy done in that domain. (Is it poor form to point out that philosophy pretty much went Nazi during the 30s.) Yes, philosophers produced logic et al.
  - BasDirks 15y ago
    Religion ended slavery? Please explain (I'm genuinely curious). Philosophy went nazi? No, nazism went philosophy, and poorly too. They raped Nietzsche's philosophy until it fit their needs, with the help of his decadent Missgeburt of a sister. Heidegger is perhaps a much more problematic case, but also not a matter of black-and-white. Philosophers _produced_ logic? Wittgenstein is lolling at you in his grave right now.
    - elwin 15y ago
      I'm not sure this is what the parent meant, but in America at least, the antislavery movement was part of a broad social reform movement which was strongly tied to the popular Christianity of the day. For example, see the connections between Charles Finney (a prominent theologian) and Oberlin College (one of the first integrated universities). Also, look up the full lyrics to the Battle Hymn of the Republic- it sounds like nonsense outside of the context of 19th century revivalism. The reform movement and its consequences make an interesting historical topic.
      - prodigal_erik 15y ago
        Strangely, there were Christians on both sides of the issue, all claiming doctrinal support for their positions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Christian_abolitionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Chri... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Opposition_to_abolitionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Oppo...
        anamax 15y ago
        > Strangely, there were Christians on both sides of the issue I wonder if that's why I wrote: "Yes, some religions advocated and supported slavery" The existence of religious slavery supporters does not refute the claim was that religious people ended slavery. As I put it the first time: "[the religious supporters of slavery] lost to [religious opponents]."
        prodigal_erik 15y ago
        I found it misleading to praise religion for motivating the winners but not blame religion (in fact almost all of the very same denominations) for also motivating the losers. Also interesting because I still can't imagine how people used the same sources but got such wildly different answers.
        anamax 15y ago
        > found it misleading to praise religion for motivating the winners but not blame religion (in fact almost all of the very same denominations) for also motivating the losers. My comment was about what caused the change, and the losers didn't do that. Why do you think that these losers deserve as much attention as these winners? Or, is this a general rule? In other news, the folks pushing 3/5 person (or less) rule were the anti-slavery folks while the slave states wanted slaves counted just like everyone else. (That rule was part of how congressional representation was determined. The "not slave" states were trying to minimize the representation of the slave states and the slave states were trying to maximize their representation.) So, anyone who brings it up as evidence of "not valuing them as people" is either dishonest or ignorant....
    - gruseom 15y ago
      Religion ended slavery? Please explain I'm not sure what anamax meant, but the abolitionist movements were highly religious. It's not just that they happened to be religious; their religion drove their activism. Wilberforce and Rankin are good examples.
    - anamax 15y ago
      > Philosophy went nazi? No, nazism went philosophy, and poorly too. Yes, the Nazis looked for "intellectual" support, but you're ignoring that they got it. If you want to argue causality.... > They raped Nietzsche's philosophy until it fit their needs, with the help of his decadent Missgeburt of a sister. Ah yes, the "Nazis were unpopular in Germany" defense..... >Heidegger is perhaps a much more problematic case, but also not a matter of black-and-white. Heidegger is "problematic" only if you choose to ignore his actual positions at the time in favor of post WWII revisionism. (In other news, early 1900s progressives were eugenicists and segregationists.) We can argue about whether that alone make Nazism popular with philosophers of that era or they came to that support on their own, but to deny that there was widespread agreement is simply absurd. To be fair, Nazism was very popular across all social classes in the 30s, so the intellectual support wasn't way outside the mainstream. My point is that isn't an example where the intellectual class got it right. Do you want to blame that on the influence of the rest of society? (They didn't at the time, but surely we shouldn't believe what philosophers say about their reasons.)
  - nate_meurer 15y ago
    What a sloppy, ignorant brush with which to paint such a complex subject as abolition. Religion was, and is, used to justify slavery every bit as much as abolition. In the U.S. for example, every major southern church organization was founded explicitly for the purpose of supporting slavery; the Southern Baptist Convention didn't officially renounce this support until 1995. To this day, religion continues to be a powerful driver of racism, classism, and slavery. In case you need examples, may I point you to the Hindu caste system and the Muslim doctrine of Dhimmitude.
  - Shorel 15y ago
    It can be argued that religion invented retconning way before we could think of a name for that process. Noah is the retconning of Gilgamesh, Jesus the retconning of Ra, etc. Every religious explanation should be taken with a ton of salt.
ajuc 15y ago
Philosophy doesn't really give answers - it only states interesting questions, and if we can answer some of them - a new science is born.
- wwrap 15y ago
  Well said. I was about to tack on "questions on the other hand..." to my comment but was already in bed when I thought of it.

As soon as philosophy gets to even a fraction of the use mathematics has, then maybe it will be worth looking to for answers.

by wwrap 15y ago

As soon as philosophy gets to even a fraction of the use mathematics has, then maybe it will be worth looking to for answers.

philbarr 15y ago

I would rather people look to philosophy for answers to their intractable problems than religion.

anamax 15y ago
> I would rather people look to philosophy for answers to their intractable problems than religion. Religion ended slavery. (Yes, some religions advocated and supported slavery - they lost to the ones that didn't.) What has philosophy done in that domain. (Is it poor form to point out that philosophy pretty much went Nazi during the 30s.) Yes, philosophers produced logic et al.
- BasDirks 15y ago
  Religion ended slavery? Please explain (I'm genuinely curious). Philosophy went nazi? No, nazism went philosophy, and poorly too. They raped Nietzsche's philosophy until it fit their needs, with the help of his decadent Missgeburt of a sister. Heidegger is perhaps a much more problematic case, but also not a matter of black-and-white. Philosophers _produced_ logic? Wittgenstein is lolling at you in his grave right now.
  - elwin 15y ago
    I'm not sure this is what the parent meant, but in America at least, the antislavery movement was part of a broad social reform movement which was strongly tied to the popular Christianity of the day. For example, see the connections between Charles Finney (a prominent theologian) and Oberlin College (one of the first integrated universities). Also, look up the full lyrics to the Battle Hymn of the Republic- it sounds like nonsense outside of the context of 19th century revivalism. The reform movement and its consequences make an interesting historical topic.
    - prodigal_erik 15y ago
      Strangely, there were Christians on both sides of the issue, all claiming doctrinal support for their positions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Christian_abolitionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Chri... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Opposition_to_abolitionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Oppo...
      - anamax 15y ago
        > Strangely, there were Christians on both sides of the issue I wonder if that's why I wrote: "Yes, some religions advocated and supported slavery" The existence of religious slavery supporters does not refute the claim was that religious people ended slavery. As I put it the first time: "[the religious supporters of slavery] lost to [religious opponents]."
        prodigal_erik 15y ago
        I found it misleading to praise religion for motivating the winners but not blame religion (in fact almost all of the very same denominations) for also motivating the losers. Also interesting because I still can't imagine how people used the same sources but got such wildly different answers.
        anamax 15y ago
        > found it misleading to praise religion for motivating the winners but not blame religion (in fact almost all of the very same denominations) for also motivating the losers. My comment was about what caused the change, and the losers didn't do that. Why do you think that these losers deserve as much attention as these winners? Or, is this a general rule? In other news, the folks pushing 3/5 person (or less) rule were the anti-slavery folks while the slave states wanted slaves counted just like everyone else. (That rule was part of how congressional representation was determined. The "not slave" states were trying to minimize the representation of the slave states and the slave states were trying to maximize their representation.) So, anyone who brings it up as evidence of "not valuing them as people" is either dishonest or ignorant....
  - gruseom 15y ago
    Religion ended slavery? Please explain I'm not sure what anamax meant, but the abolitionist movements were highly religious. It's not just that they happened to be religious; their religion drove their activism. Wilberforce and Rankin are good examples.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > Philosophy went nazi? No, nazism went philosophy, and poorly too. Yes, the Nazis looked for "intellectual" support, but you're ignoring that they got it. If you want to argue causality.... > They raped Nietzsche's philosophy until it fit their needs, with the help of his decadent Missgeburt of a sister. Ah yes, the "Nazis were unpopular in Germany" defense..... >Heidegger is perhaps a much more problematic case, but also not a matter of black-and-white. Heidegger is "problematic" only if you choose to ignore his actual positions at the time in favor of post WWII revisionism. (In other news, early 1900s progressives were eugenicists and segregationists.) We can argue about whether that alone make Nazism popular with philosophers of that era or they came to that support on their own, but to deny that there was widespread agreement is simply absurd. To be fair, Nazism was very popular across all social classes in the 30s, so the intellectual support wasn't way outside the mainstream. My point is that isn't an example where the intellectual class got it right. Do you want to blame that on the influence of the rest of society? (They didn't at the time, but surely we shouldn't believe what philosophers say about their reasons.)
- nate_meurer 15y ago
  What a sloppy, ignorant brush with which to paint such a complex subject as abolition. Religion was, and is, used to justify slavery every bit as much as abolition. In the U.S. for example, every major southern church organization was founded explicitly for the purpose of supporting slavery; the Southern Baptist Convention didn't officially renounce this support until 1995. To this day, religion continues to be a powerful driver of racism, classism, and slavery. In case you need examples, may I point you to the Hindu caste system and the Muslim doctrine of Dhimmitude.
- Shorel 15y ago
  It can be argued that religion invented retconning way before we could think of a name for that process. Noah is the retconning of Gilgamesh, Jesus the retconning of Ra, etc. Every religious explanation should be taken with a ton of salt.

ajuc 15y ago

Philosophy doesn't really give answers - it only states interesting questions, and if we can answer some of them - a new science is born.

wwrap 15y ago
Well said. I was about to tack on "questions on the other hand..." to my comment but was already in bed when I thought of it.