8 ms·

Or just don’t go to China

BelenusMordred 5y ago
In good faith, why not go there? It's the second largest economy on the planet and homes 1 in 5 people on the planet. I think everyone should visit at least once if they can. I really enjoyed my time in southern China. It's a strange place that has little enthusiasm for foreigners but a worthwhile experience nonetheless.
- dtx1 5y ago
  > In good faith, why not go there? Well that depends on your personal limit of how many concentration camps a country can have before you decide not to visit it. My Personal limit is 1, yours might be 400, in which case i would visit quickly cause china is getting there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-built-380-internment-camps-in-xinjiang-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...
  - w0de0 5y ago
    I believe you missed the “in good faith” part of his comment, and responded with vitriol and the implication that you were parent commentor’s moral superior. Tiresome: do better so we can all have a nicer website to visit.
    - dtx1 5y ago
      In good faith, why not visit north korea, its a beautiful country, in good faith why not cage kids at the border, they are trespassing after all, in good faith why not bomb news stations in gaza, there are rockets beeing fired from buildings in that general region, in good faith why not drone strike a wedding in pakistan there are terrorists in pakistan after all, in good faith why not spy on every person on the plant, some of them might be criminal at all.
      - w0de0 5y ago
        Goddamnit, dtx1, the people on the other goddamn side of the wire are people. I'm a person, in Colorado, not a party appratchik. I'm a person. I fucking agree with your desire to boycott China in solidarity with the oppressed. What I'm not, and you are being (but are not, since no one is one thing, since you're human), is an asshole. I don't assume the person on the other side of the wire is evil, or incapable of having a civil discussion, or, ludicrously, as you are doing, a supporter of evil because they advocated tourism in China. The "good faith" is about talking to someone, not about Pakistan, or spying, or anything else. It's about not assuming I'm evil. It's about you having an assumption of the decency of your interlocutor, and them doing the same for you, even when you disagree, even when you suspect their opinions support evil. This is what allows you to be heard, and it's the only path that you'll ever have to actually convince someone of (your very obvious and very common on HN anyways) opinions. For chrissakes the parent post didn't even advocate especially going to China to support ethic cleansing, they just suggested its a good idea if you wish to understand the world. Which, objectively, is fucking true. You're what's wrong with the internet! Grow up and understand that you're talking to humans, or go to reddit, please.
        markus_zhang 5y ago
        Well said.
        dtx1 5y ago
        > You're what's wrong with the internet! Hyperbole much. > Grow up and understand that you're talking to humans I'm not talking to humans I'm WRITING in a public Forum which is read by humans. If a little bit of rhetoric to show just how willfully ignorant the question "why in good faith shouldn't i go to china" is too much for you, then the internet might not be a thing that's good for your mental health. Especially an opinion amplifying up vote based circle jerk like ycombinator, reddit, etc.
        yesenadam 5y ago
        Please read the guidelines. Every sentence of that comment breaks at least one.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Are you American? Do you excuse the migrant holding camps, with its toddler separation? I can see your mind turning gears to come up with reasons why you think those are fine... Where do we draw the line of what sort of "camp" is humane?
    - dtx1 5y ago
      I'm not american i'm german. We know a thing or too about concentration camps. And yes i wouldn't have visited america under trump and wouldn't visit them now either. Where i draw the line is when criminals get their fair day in a court vs getting in a camp for being muslim.
      - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
        > Where i draw the line is when criminals get their fair day in a court This falsely implies that laws are consistently just, strongly benefit society in evidence-based ways, aren't regularly composed by lobbyists or in response to party politics and are applied equally.
        dtx1 5y ago
        This implies that all courts are equal and Theres no difference between chinese concentration camps and for example the swedish prison system
        WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
        > This implies that all courts are equal LOL. It doesn't imply that at all. It repeatedly hints at corruption in justice systems.
      - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
        So, how do you feel about those those German-taxpayer-funded refugee holding camps in Turkey, and the German funded Libyan coast guard?
  - BelenusMordred 5y ago
    Ok, so by that measure of "travel or not" I should avoid all the top countries on the incarcerated per capita list[1][2]? China comes in at 129th. The US is number 1. While Black people only make up 10% of the population, they make up over 50% of prisoners, 4/5ths of people in American prisons haven't even been convicted of a crime. Should I avoid the United States because of this? Have you not travelled to the United States or purchased products from them because of this stance? Honest question? It seems to be something well out of my control and I'm accepting of that fact. Other countries include Turkmenistan, El Salvador, Rwanda, Cuba. I'm highly interested in what places you have visited with these personal requirements before travelling. Never visited Russia, Eastern Europe or South East Asia? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#/media/File:World_map_of_prison_population_rates_from_World_Prison_Brief.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
    - dtx1 5y ago
      Yes you should. And you propably should avoid buying from them too. I have bought stuff from china and the USA. It's inevitable, but i am under no illusion that china is a genocidal dictatorship and the racism and structural failures in the US are so bad that my country only extradites prisoners to the US when for example the death penalty is not an option. Living in the EU i only got on passport stamp from Ukraine which i got for visiting Chernobyl and from what i saw living in Ukraine can be absolutely horrible, the poverty is breathtaking if you are used to european standards.
      - op03 5y ago
        This is not a healthy way of looking at the world. There are good people anywhere you go. When you choose to disconnect or blame or shame them for the actions of others, your world and understanding of it grows smaller. And who do you think benefits from that?
        dtx1 5y ago
- 0xbeefeed 5y ago
  Because it is ruled by a party that rivals Nazi Germany. Because they treat foreigners like trash, except if you’re white, and especially if you’re black. Because they are the most racist nation on Earth. Because once you get inside its borders, they will permanently have more data on you than Facebook and all social medias combined. Because your every move will be monitored, physical or digital. Should I go on?

In good faith, why not go there? It's the second largest economy on the planet and homes 1 in 5 people on the planet. I think everyone should visit at least once if they can. I really enjoyed my time in southern China. It's a strange place that has little enthusiasm for foreigners but a worthwhile experience nonetheless.

dtx1 5y ago
> In good faith, why not go there? Well that depends on your personal limit of how many concentration camps a country can have before you decide not to visit it. My Personal limit is 1, yours might be 400, in which case i would visit quickly cause china is getting there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-built-380-internment-camps-in-xinjiang-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...
- w0de0 5y ago
  I believe you missed the “in good faith” part of his comment, and responded with vitriol and the implication that you were parent commentor’s moral superior. Tiresome: do better so we can all have a nicer website to visit.
  - dtx1 5y ago
    In good faith, why not visit north korea, its a beautiful country, in good faith why not cage kids at the border, they are trespassing after all, in good faith why not bomb news stations in gaza, there are rockets beeing fired from buildings in that general region, in good faith why not drone strike a wedding in pakistan there are terrorists in pakistan after all, in good faith why not spy on every person on the plant, some of them might be criminal at all.
    - w0de0 5y ago
      Goddamnit, dtx1, the people on the other goddamn side of the wire are people. I'm a person, in Colorado, not a party appratchik. I'm a person. I fucking agree with your desire to boycott China in solidarity with the oppressed. What I'm not, and you are being (but are not, since no one is one thing, since you're human), is an asshole. I don't assume the person on the other side of the wire is evil, or incapable of having a civil discussion, or, ludicrously, as you are doing, a supporter of evil because they advocated tourism in China. The "good faith" is about talking to someone, not about Pakistan, or spying, or anything else. It's about not assuming I'm evil. It's about you having an assumption of the decency of your interlocutor, and them doing the same for you, even when you disagree, even when you suspect their opinions support evil. This is what allows you to be heard, and it's the only path that you'll ever have to actually convince someone of (your very obvious and very common on HN anyways) opinions. For chrissakes the parent post didn't even advocate especially going to China to support ethic cleansing, they just suggested its a good idea if you wish to understand the world. Which, objectively, is fucking true. You're what's wrong with the internet! Grow up and understand that you're talking to humans, or go to reddit, please.
      - markus_zhang 5y ago
        Well said.
      - dtx1 5y ago
        > You're what's wrong with the internet! Hyperbole much. > Grow up and understand that you're talking to humans I'm not talking to humans I'm WRITING in a public Forum which is read by humans. If a little bit of rhetoric to show just how willfully ignorant the question "why in good faith shouldn't i go to china" is too much for you, then the internet might not be a thing that's good for your mental health. Especially an opinion amplifying up vote based circle jerk like ycombinator, reddit, etc.
        yesenadam 5y ago
        Please read the guidelines. Every sentence of that comment breaks at least one.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Are you American? Do you excuse the migrant holding camps, with its toddler separation? I can see your mind turning gears to come up with reasons why you think those are fine... Where do we draw the line of what sort of "camp" is humane?
  - dtx1 5y ago
    I'm not american i'm german. We know a thing or too about concentration camps. And yes i wouldn't have visited america under trump and wouldn't visit them now either. Where i draw the line is when criminals get their fair day in a court vs getting in a camp for being muslim.
    - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
      > Where i draw the line is when criminals get their fair day in a court This falsely implies that laws are consistently just, strongly benefit society in evidence-based ways, aren't regularly composed by lobbyists or in response to party politics and are applied equally.
      - dtx1 5y ago
        This implies that all courts are equal and Theres no difference between chinese concentration camps and for example the swedish prison system
        WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
        > This implies that all courts are equal LOL. It doesn't imply that at all. It repeatedly hints at corruption in justice systems.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      So, how do you feel about those those German-taxpayer-funded refugee holding camps in Turkey, and the German funded Libyan coast guard?
- BelenusMordred 5y ago
  Ok, so by that measure of "travel or not" I should avoid all the top countries on the incarcerated per capita list[1][2]? China comes in at 129th. The US is number 1. While Black people only make up 10% of the population, they make up over 50% of prisoners, 4/5ths of people in American prisons haven't even been convicted of a crime. Should I avoid the United States because of this? Have you not travelled to the United States or purchased products from them because of this stance? Honest question? It seems to be something well out of my control and I'm accepting of that fact. Other countries include Turkmenistan, El Salvador, Rwanda, Cuba. I'm highly interested in what places you have visited with these personal requirements before travelling. Never visited Russia, Eastern Europe or South East Asia? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#/media/File:World_map_of_prison_population_rates_from_World_Prison_Brief.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
  - dtx1 5y ago
    Yes you should. And you propably should avoid buying from them too. I have bought stuff from china and the USA. It's inevitable, but i am under no illusion that china is a genocidal dictatorship and the racism and structural failures in the US are so bad that my country only extradites prisoners to the US when for example the death penalty is not an option. Living in the EU i only got on passport stamp from Ukraine which i got for visiting Chernobyl and from what i saw living in Ukraine can be absolutely horrible, the poverty is breathtaking if you are used to european standards.
    - op03 5y ago
      This is not a healthy way of looking at the world. There are good people anywhere you go. When you choose to disconnect or blame or shame them for the actions of others, your world and understanding of it grows smaller. And who do you think benefits from that?
      - dtx1 5y ago
0xbeefeed 5y ago
Because it is ruled by a party that rivals Nazi Germany. Because they treat foreigners like trash, except if you’re white, and especially if you’re black. Because they are the most racist nation on Earth. Because once you get inside its borders, they will permanently have more data on you than Facebook and all social medias combined. Because your every move will be monitored, physical or digital. Should I go on?