5 ms·

"San Francisco Deputy Public Defender Doug Welch called in to the hearing to say his clients charged with shoplifting are not part of organized crime, but are h

by ku-man 5y ago

"San Francisco Deputy Public Defender Doug Welch called in to the hearing to say his clients charged with shoplifting are not part of organized crime, but are homeless or struggling with substance abuse and need more services." As if is not stealing if you are a druggie or homeless.

void_mint 5y ago
The purpose of that statement was to point out that it's not like it's hardened criminals stealing novelty items, but homeless and struggling individuals needing basic necessities. But sure, you're welcome to be as cynical as you'd like.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  What are the conditions of sf's homeless shelters? How easy is it for a homeless person to get a square meal or shelter through legal means? Being homeless or poor is only an excuse for stealing if you cannot reasonably get your basic needs met in a legal way.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    > What are the conditions of sf's homeless shelters? I don't live in SF, but homeless shelters are oftentimes disgusting and terrible places. I don't blame anyone that doesn't want to stay in them if they can figure out other accommodations. Nonreligious based shelters sometimes provide very little in terms of hygiene/necessities/food, sometimes basically nothing other than a small cot or gym mat (aka no food, no shower, etc). Religious shelters often require religious involvement. Forced praying as an example. There is also the issue of frequent abuse/sexual assault in homeless shelters. > Being homeless or poor is only an excuse for stealing if you cannot reasonably get your basic needs met in a legal way. I don't really think shoplifting food to survive is an "excuse". Again, they're not stealing CD players.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      I would be interested in reading some actual reporting on this. I have heard plenty of third, fourth, and fifth hand reports of how horrible homeless shelters are. But I don't have anything verifiable.
      - void_mint 5y ago
        Lots of perspectives here: https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-choose-the-streets-over-shelters https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-c... A specific account of sexual abuse in a shelter here: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/mayor-orders-probe-women-accuse-homeless-shelter-exec-75745454 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/mayor-orders-probe... There's plenty of reporting on it. As with all news, it's tough to get realistic accounts of what's going on in shelters because a lot of the people being asked are involved with shelter administration, so obviously there wouldn't be as much emphasis on the bad living conditions. Getting more info from actual homeless people would be helpful, but obviously the entire point is a lot of them are battling substance abuse issues and/or mental health problems, so there are complications on getting decent information out of them.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
        Yeah I read an account of a girl named Dasani growing up in one of these shelters. Seems not good. I'm not saying people need palatial living conditions but decent food and intact mattresses don't seem like too much to ask.
    - pie420 5y ago
      So are we pretending that abuse/sexual abuse of the homeless magically stops when they leave the shelter? Is it even logical to assume that there would be less sexual abuse in the streets than in a shelter?
      - void_mint 5y ago
        > So are we pretending that abuse/sexual abuse of the homeless magically stops when they leave the shelter? If there was a specific location in which sexual abuse was prevalent, and you had to decide whether to go to that place or not, would you? > Is it even logical to assume that there would be less sexual abuse in the streets than in a shelter? Is this a serious question? "There is a place with a high percentage of sexual abuse, are you more likely to experience sexual abuse there or not-there?"
  - hedora 5y ago
    This is SF. It’s literally illegal for them to take a crap. After all the public bathrooms were eliminated, the city made an app so you can send them pictures of human feces. That way they can send someone out to clean it up. I guess that’s cheaper than maintaining actual restrooms.
    - pie420 5y ago
      What are you talking about? What their world country are you from wheres shitting on the street is legal? I'm fairly certain that public defecation is illegal everywhere, and probably gets you on a sex offender list in a lot of states. The reason public bathrooms were eliminated is because they become dens for heroin use. Always fun going to the bathroom with your kids to find druggies rolling on the floor with heroin needles scattered about. How do you maintain a bathroom with homeless people injecting heroin? You need police for that, not simple bathroom cleaners. I'm ultra leftist, but this degeneracy of enabling drug addiction and encouraging crime and homelessness only serves to produce more crime, more homelessness, and more suffering.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - amluto 5y ago
        The Portland Loo isn’t a den for anything: https://portlandloo.com/ https://portlandloo.com/ In European countries, it’s quite common to find public bathrooms with attendants who charge a nominal fee. In Japan, public bathrooms are common and amazing. (Public trashcans are a different story.) In cities near SF (excluding Palo Alto), perfectly nice public bathrooms are common in parks.
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Being homeless is pretty tough under "the best of circumstances." From what I gather, the pandemic has been hella hard on the homeless population. It's been nightmarish for many of them.
  - hellotomyrars 5y ago
    I don't live in SF so I won't speak to their particularities but in the cities I have lived in the shelter capacity is below the homeless population, that's for sure. The sad truth is the easiest way for a homeless person to get a place to sleep and a reliable food supply is to be incarcerated. It is something I don't hear a lot of people talking about but a non-trivial part of our absurdly large prison population are people who habitually reoffend because they have nowhere else to go to begin with. Once you've got a criminal record and you already have no support system on the outside, breaking the cycle is damn near impossible. We end up paying for it either way so it is a problem worth addressing, at least in my opinion.
veridies 5y ago
It is the job of a public defender to defend his clients. His statement here is absolutely correct. Prosecutors, on the other hand, have to decide what their jobs are.
Sebb767 5y ago
> As if is not stealing if you are a druggie or homeless. It's arguably a different thing if you're stealing out of necessity or because you're systematically stealing in a large fashion for personal enrichment. Yes, both is a loss, but the latter one is arguably more malicious. That being said, if stores need to close down because your homeless/addict population is so large that they're basically raiding the stores, you have a far bigger problem on your hands.

by ku-man 5y ago

void_mint 5y ago

The purpose of that statement was to point out that it's not like it's hardened criminals stealing novelty items, but homeless and struggling individuals needing basic necessities. But sure, you're welcome to be as cynical as you'd like.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
What are the conditions of sf's homeless shelters? How easy is it for a homeless person to get a square meal or shelter through legal means? Being homeless or poor is only an excuse for stealing if you cannot reasonably get your basic needs met in a legal way.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > What are the conditions of sf's homeless shelters? I don't live in SF, but homeless shelters are oftentimes disgusting and terrible places. I don't blame anyone that doesn't want to stay in them if they can figure out other accommodations. Nonreligious based shelters sometimes provide very little in terms of hygiene/necessities/food, sometimes basically nothing other than a small cot or gym mat (aka no food, no shower, etc). Religious shelters often require religious involvement. Forced praying as an example. There is also the issue of frequent abuse/sexual assault in homeless shelters. > Being homeless or poor is only an excuse for stealing if you cannot reasonably get your basic needs met in a legal way. I don't really think shoplifting food to survive is an "excuse". Again, they're not stealing CD players.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    I would be interested in reading some actual reporting on this. I have heard plenty of third, fourth, and fifth hand reports of how horrible homeless shelters are. But I don't have anything verifiable.
    - void_mint 5y ago
      Lots of perspectives here: https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-choose-the-streets-over-shelters https://www.npr.org/2012/12/06/166666265/why-some-homeless-c... A specific account of sexual abuse in a shelter here: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/mayor-orders-probe-women-accuse-homeless-shelter-exec-75745454 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/mayor-orders-probe... There's plenty of reporting on it. As with all news, it's tough to get realistic accounts of what's going on in shelters because a lot of the people being asked are involved with shelter administration, so obviously there wouldn't be as much emphasis on the bad living conditions. Getting more info from actual homeless people would be helpful, but obviously the entire point is a lot of them are battling substance abuse issues and/or mental health problems, so there are complications on getting decent information out of them.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
        Yeah I read an account of a girl named Dasani growing up in one of these shelters. Seems not good. I'm not saying people need palatial living conditions but decent food and intact mattresses don't seem like too much to ask.
  - pie420 5y ago
    So are we pretending that abuse/sexual abuse of the homeless magically stops when they leave the shelter? Is it even logical to assume that there would be less sexual abuse in the streets than in a shelter?
    - void_mint 5y ago
      > So are we pretending that abuse/sexual abuse of the homeless magically stops when they leave the shelter? If there was a specific location in which sexual abuse was prevalent, and you had to decide whether to go to that place or not, would you? > Is it even logical to assume that there would be less sexual abuse in the streets than in a shelter? Is this a serious question? "There is a place with a high percentage of sexual abuse, are you more likely to experience sexual abuse there or not-there?"
- hedora 5y ago
  This is SF. It’s literally illegal for them to take a crap. After all the public bathrooms were eliminated, the city made an app so you can send them pictures of human feces. That way they can send someone out to clean it up. I guess that’s cheaper than maintaining actual restrooms.
  - pie420 5y ago
    What are you talking about? What their world country are you from wheres shitting on the street is legal? I'm fairly certain that public defecation is illegal everywhere, and probably gets you on a sex offender list in a lot of states. The reason public bathrooms were eliminated is because they become dens for heroin use. Always fun going to the bathroom with your kids to find druggies rolling on the floor with heroin needles scattered about. How do you maintain a bathroom with homeless people injecting heroin? You need police for that, not simple bathroom cleaners. I'm ultra leftist, but this degeneracy of enabling drug addiction and encouraging crime and homelessness only serves to produce more crime, more homelessness, and more suffering.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - amluto 5y ago
      The Portland Loo isn’t a den for anything: https://portlandloo.com/ https://portlandloo.com/ In European countries, it’s quite common to find public bathrooms with attendants who charge a nominal fee. In Japan, public bathrooms are common and amazing. (Public trashcans are a different story.) In cities near SF (excluding Palo Alto), perfectly nice public bathrooms are common in parks.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  Being homeless is pretty tough under "the best of circumstances." From what I gather, the pandemic has been hella hard on the homeless population. It's been nightmarish for many of them.
- hellotomyrars 5y ago
  I don't live in SF so I won't speak to their particularities but in the cities I have lived in the shelter capacity is below the homeless population, that's for sure. The sad truth is the easiest way for a homeless person to get a place to sleep and a reliable food supply is to be incarcerated. It is something I don't hear a lot of people talking about but a non-trivial part of our absurdly large prison population are people who habitually reoffend because they have nowhere else to go to begin with. Once you've got a criminal record and you already have no support system on the outside, breaking the cycle is damn near impossible. We end up paying for it either way so it is a problem worth addressing, at least in my opinion.

veridies 5y ago

It is the job of a public defender to defend his clients. His statement here is absolutely correct. Prosecutors, on the other hand, have to decide what their jobs are.

Sebb767 5y ago

> As if is not stealing if you are a druggie or homeless. It's arguably a different thing if you're stealing out of necessity or because you're systematically stealing in a large fashion for personal enrichment. Yes, both is a loss, but the latter one is arguably more malicious. That being said, if stores need to close down because your homeless/addict population is so large that they're basically raiding the stores, you have a far bigger problem on your hands.