7 ms·

What different standards do you mean?

by M277 5y ago

golergka 5y ago
I've never, in any other conflict, witnessed a public opinion on the side of the aggressor. I've never, in any other conflict, seen an army that's not fighting overseas, but is desperately trying to prevent massive loss of life in it's own population, accused of "disproportionate" response — even though it would take measures to prevent any casualties that are completely unprecedented in world practices and makes achieving it's goals (see above) significantly harder. I've never in my life seen calls for genocide of entire nation (that's exactly what "from the river to the sea" means, if you're not aware) widely supported through out the world. Every time this conflict happens again, I can't help but realise that if it was not for IDF, my family would have long have been brutally killed, and all those first-world liberals who're so busy fighting for their causes wouldn't even mind.
- betsushikime 5y ago
  Yes, the coverage of the conflict is one-sided and popular opinion is on the side of the Palestinians. The reason for that is that the conflict itself is one-sided. Gaza is occupied by Israel. Further, Israel has the overwhelming advantage in military power and the Palestinians suffer the overwhelming majority of casualties every time there is conflict. In the 2008-09 war, the total number of Israeli citizens killed was 13, 10 of whom were combatants and 3 non-combatants (according to the IDF, see [1]). The total number of Palestinians killed was, depending on the source, between 1166 (IDF estimate) and 1440 (Palestinian ministry of Health, Gaza) [1]. The IDF protects your homes and your families, yes. It also crushes the lives and obliterates the houses of the Palestinians. Public opinion is against Israel not because the IDF protects Israeli citizens, but because the IDF kills Palestinians. Finally, the IDF can protect your families and your homes, but there is nobody to protect the lives and homes of the Palestinians. Public opinion is their only shield and it doesn't stop bombs. My comment is by way of explanation, not by way of accusation. ____________ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War_(20...
  - bronzeage 5y ago
    Gaza is literally not occupied by Israel. Israel withdrew all troops and even banished their own citizens from Gaza. All the Palestinians had to do was not be absolute savages and attack Israel after being given their land with no strings attached. Every single restriction put of Gaza was a direct result of the Palestinian's abuse of the disengagement to fire rockets and kidnap soldiers. All they had to do was simply live in peace, instead they proved to every watching Israeli that Palestinians are bloodthirsty savages. After the result of the disengagement from Gaza being this, only radical left in Israel even contemplates giving Palestinians sovereignty.
    - sequoia 5y ago
      @dang how do you “report” comments? BronzeAge: a lot of the facts you are reporting are true and you’re sharing an important perspective that’s missing in this conversation but your comment is turned into complete garbage by the fact that you’re dehumanizing the Palestinians and making yourself look like a genocidal idiot. Stop!! If you have useful criticisms and perspective to add (as you clearly do), add them, and leave out the racism and bloodlust. I don’t care how “accurate” the rest of your analysis is you can’t call a whole population savages, it’s the dehumanizing precursor to mass violence.
      - jcranmer 5y ago
        I'll point out that bronzeage's comment strikes me as stage 4 of genocide (see http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/ http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/ for a description of the different stages). And of the various stages, stage 4 is the most critical one to me: the prior stages are all things that exist in generally healthy societies, because it's really, really hard to stamp out discrimination (that doesn't mean we shouldn't try!), but stage 4 is where the rhetoric about outright extermination is built. Everything that comes afterwards is more or less about turning the slaughter from one-off incidents into a systematic slaughter machine.
      - golergka 5y ago
        There is nothing racist or inaccurate in the comment you're replying to. I understand why you might think so, but I can assure you, it just means that you dramatically misunderstand the situation.
- names_are_hard 5y ago
  Some of the things you're saying are true, but I think you need to make an effort to put yourself in the mindset of the other side. I live in Tel Aviv, I am sympathetic to the way you feel and know many fellow Israelis who feel the same way. But it's not an absolute, universal truth that the Palestinians are the aggressor. Just as convinced as you are that they are evil, bloodthirsty people hellbent on killing you, many of them are convinced the exact opposite - that you are all of those things toward them. I say this to everyone reading: if you can't understand your enemy, if you cannot fathom why they act the way they do, if you cannot get into their heads and hearts and empathize with them, you ought to wonder if you simply lack imagination or are living in a bubble.
- 34679 5y ago
  If you lock a dog in a cage and starve it, who's the aggressor when it eventually bites you?

What different standards do you mean?

by M277 5y ago

What different standards do you mean?

I've never, in any other conflict, witnessed a public opinion on the side of the aggressor. I've never, in any other conflict, seen an army that's not fighting overseas, but is desperately trying to prevent massive loss of life in it's own population, accused of "disproportionate" response — even though it would take measures to prevent any casualties that are completely unprecedented in world practices and makes achieving it's goals (see above) significantly harder. I've never in my life seen calls for genocide of entire nation (that's exactly what "from the river to the sea" means, if you're not aware) widely supported through out the world. Every time this conflict happens again, I can't help but realise that if it was not for IDF, my family would have long have been brutally killed, and all those first-world liberals who're so busy fighting for their causes wouldn't even mind.

betsushikime 5y ago
Yes, the coverage of the conflict is one-sided and popular opinion is on the side of the Palestinians. The reason for that is that the conflict itself is one-sided. Gaza is occupied by Israel. Further, Israel has the overwhelming advantage in military power and the Palestinians suffer the overwhelming majority of casualties every time there is conflict. In the 2008-09 war, the total number of Israeli citizens killed was 13, 10 of whom were combatants and 3 non-combatants (according to the IDF, see [1]). The total number of Palestinians killed was, depending on the source, between 1166 (IDF estimate) and 1440 (Palestinian ministry of Health, Gaza) [1]. The IDF protects your homes and your families, yes. It also crushes the lives and obliterates the houses of the Palestinians. Public opinion is against Israel not because the IDF protects Israeli citizens, but because the IDF kills Palestinians. Finally, the IDF can protect your families and your homes, but there is nobody to protect the lives and homes of the Palestinians. Public opinion is their only shield and it doesn't stop bombs. My comment is by way of explanation, not by way of accusation. ____________ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War_(20...
- bronzeage 5y ago
  Gaza is literally not occupied by Israel. Israel withdrew all troops and even banished their own citizens from Gaza. All the Palestinians had to do was not be absolute savages and attack Israel after being given their land with no strings attached. Every single restriction put of Gaza was a direct result of the Palestinian's abuse of the disengagement to fire rockets and kidnap soldiers. All they had to do was simply live in peace, instead they proved to every watching Israeli that Palestinians are bloodthirsty savages. After the result of the disengagement from Gaza being this, only radical left in Israel even contemplates giving Palestinians sovereignty.
  - sequoia 5y ago
    @dang how do you “report” comments? BronzeAge: a lot of the facts you are reporting are true and you’re sharing an important perspective that’s missing in this conversation but your comment is turned into complete garbage by the fact that you’re dehumanizing the Palestinians and making yourself look like a genocidal idiot. Stop!! If you have useful criticisms and perspective to add (as you clearly do), add them, and leave out the racism and bloodlust. I don’t care how “accurate” the rest of your analysis is you can’t call a whole population savages, it’s the dehumanizing precursor to mass violence.
    - jcranmer 5y ago
      I'll point out that bronzeage's comment strikes me as stage 4 of genocide (see http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/ http://genocidewatch.net/genocide-2/8-stages-of-genocide/ for a description of the different stages). And of the various stages, stage 4 is the most critical one to me: the prior stages are all things that exist in generally healthy societies, because it's really, really hard to stamp out discrimination (that doesn't mean we shouldn't try!), but stage 4 is where the rhetoric about outright extermination is built. Everything that comes afterwards is more or less about turning the slaughter from one-off incidents into a systematic slaughter machine.
    - golergka 5y ago
      There is nothing racist or inaccurate in the comment you're replying to. I understand why you might think so, but I can assure you, it just means that you dramatically misunderstand the situation.
names_are_hard 5y ago
Some of the things you're saying are true, but I think you need to make an effort to put yourself in the mindset of the other side. I live in Tel Aviv, I am sympathetic to the way you feel and know many fellow Israelis who feel the same way. But it's not an absolute, universal truth that the Palestinians are the aggressor. Just as convinced as you are that they are evil, bloodthirsty people hellbent on killing you, many of them are convinced the exact opposite - that you are all of those things toward them. I say this to everyone reading: if you can't understand your enemy, if you cannot fathom why they act the way they do, if you cannot get into their heads and hearts and empathize with them, you ought to wonder if you simply lack imagination or are living in a bubble.
34679 5y ago
If you lock a dog in a cage and starve it, who's the aggressor when it eventually bites you?