5 ms·

I'm confused as to why this headline has to be so close to clickbait. I'm not even one to stand up for people like Lambda, I think a lot of bootcamps are shady

I'm confused as to why this headline has to be so close to clickbait. I'm not even one to stand up for people like Lambda, I think a lot of bootcamps are shady at best, and actively deceptive at worst (Trilogy). It is definitely important to note that that these loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? Is the point here that there was a population of Lambda students who weren't aware they could discharge their loan, and this contract prevision was preventing them from doing so? Or was the school deliberately making that process more difficult? The article makes none of that entirely clear. On the whole this doesn't scream "deceptive educational financing practices" to me. That sounds like a government agency press release making a mountain out of a molehill and trying to knock Lambda down a peg, but I might be wrong. Edit: after reading how dischargeability impacts people's ability to take out the loan in the first place, yeah, this matters quite a bit, and I was wrong because I didn't understand how education financing works. I'll own that. Seems Lambda was being less than equitable in how they approached the matter, and hoping no one would notice.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
threatofrain 5y ago
https://dfpi.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/337/2021/04/CFPL-Lambda-School-consent-order.pdf https://dfpi.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/337/2021/04/CFP...
luckylion 5y ago
> But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? That's the point, I believe. Lambda School was pretending their loans were protected from bankruptcy proceedings so students wouldn't consider it. It's somewhat common for corporations to pretend that laws don't exist. Even if only half of the customers believe them and don't sue, they'll save money.
elliekelly 5y ago
“Deceptive practices” is a commonly used legal term in consumer protection. It’s often used in conjunction with “unfair business practices” or “unfair and deceptive practices” depending on the state and what has been alleged.
detaro 5y ago
If you agree that it's an important detail, how is misrepresenting their status in the contract, and thus misleading people about their rights, not deceptive?
songqin 5y ago
What do you specifically find deceptive about Trilogy? Just curious, as I see them around me a lot.
- bdcravens 5y ago
  I can't speak to Trilogy specifically, but for many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers. I see this brought up quite a bit, and I don't really see the issue. They are offering their graduates jobs, so why should these jobs not count just like any other jobs?
    - boldslogan 5y ago
      Because the only way that would continue to work is they got more new students (at the bottom) to pay for the old students (at the top) jobs and it (the pyramid) would fall apart. In other words it looks like a pyramid scheme if the grads only get jobs as teachers.
      - tootahe45 5y ago
        You just described 80% of the tertiary education courses unis offer.
        blaser-waffle 5y ago
        Lol yeah sounds like grad school. "Congrats on getting into the program, you're now adjunct faculty, the class you're teaching starts at 930am Monday." 5 years later maybe they have a piece of paper and maybe that impacts their job prospects.
jfrunyon 5y ago
> It is definitely important to note that that these loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? Is the point here that there was a population of Lambda students who weren't aware they could discharge their loan, and this contract prevision was preventing them from doing so? Or was the school deliberately making that process more difficult? The article makes none of that entirely clear. It makes it quite clear. The loan has always been dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, they had a provision in their contract stating otherwise, which was deceptive.
- musicale 5y ago
  Although it is harder to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, as I understand it they can be discharged in bankruptcy if the borrower can prove undue hardship (probably hard to do, especially with income-based repayment) or if 7 years have elapsed since the start of repayment. This does seem to violate the spirit of bankruptcy law as well as basic economics (presumably student loans consist of and are repaid with the same dollars that are used for other loans or unsecured debt) and has almost certainly helped universities raise tuition with impunity for decades while student loan debt has ballooned to more than $1T in the US.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    You can thank a truly gross lobbying effort that culminated in a bill[0] passed in 2005 intended to curb "bankruptcy abuse" (a thing that was not actually a thing), and, among other things, greatly restricted how educational loans could be discharged in bankruptcy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_an...
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    > if the borrower can prove undue hardship (probably hard to do, especially with income-based repayment) Yeah, it's pretty hard to do. You have to have an "adversarial proceeding" (i.e. a lawyer from the Department of Education or whoever shows up and argues against you).
aerosmile 5y ago
You're right and wrong. You already touched on the latter in your edit, so let's focus on the former for a sec. I was not surprised at all to see your comment, since I walked away with the same impression - someone at a gov agency tried harder than usual to achieve the max juice out of this release. Learning in this thread that this is a brand new agency and that this might have been the very first case they were tasked with (hope I got that right), helped me complete the full picture.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy." To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery. In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.
- peteretep 5y ago
  I note this is the case in the UK too tho: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/debt-solutions/bankruptcy-2/bankruptcy-explained/debts-that-bankruptcy-covers/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/debt-soluti...
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  In my country personal bankruptcy does not exist, never did. For us the idea that in a 'free country' one can take a loan and declare bankruptcy not to pay it back sounds crazy. This is evidence of cultural differences, nothing else - definitely not 'free country' or education.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- koolba 5y ago
  The argument for it is that without it a graduate with a large balance could default on their loan immediately after graduation. The classic example being a surgeon getting hundreds of thousands in loans for medical school, and then skipping out on paying them back when they begin making bank as a doctor.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Yes and it's a BS argument, because going through bankruptcy is not something to be taken lightly or something that you can "just do", because it's not only about "you owe X" but how well can you service your debt. Of course this argument was an excuse to inflate education prices and make lenders more interest as well.
pugio 5y ago
Could you comment a bit more about Trilogy? From what I understand, they provide a bootcamp as a service to be offered by other institutions, such as universities around the world. Do you have any personal experience of their deception or lack of quality?
- mox1 5y ago
  Agreed hopefully we get a response. I was an instructor for Trilogy, didn't really see any 'deceptive practices' in my couple years there.
  - pugio 5y ago
    Would you be willing to speak a bit more about your experience there? I work on non-profit tech education, and am curious about effective/successful bootcamps. (My email is in my profile.)
  - bdcravens 5y ago
    For many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.
- lai-yin 5y ago
  I was a student at Trilogy. Not sure what they mean. The course was fun. The good students leveled up in their careers. I certainly did.
  - pugio 5y ago
    Would you be willing to speak a bit more about your experience there? I work on non-profit tech education, and am curious about effective/successful bootcamps. (My email is in my profile.)
pkdpic_y9k 5y ago
Totally valid but just feel like I have to throw in that I went to a bootcamp, was very suspicious from the earliest stages of consideration but found on the other side that all the friends I made there who attended-even the one that failed out and went to another bootcamp-went from part time jobs making less than 30k a year to legit software engineering positions making 60~120k in less than a year. Im still surprised that the whole thing wasn't a scam. That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now in terms of job placement, not sure how places like lambda differ...
- brigandish 5y ago
  > That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now You're allowed to say who it is - in fact, I think you should say who it is, reward quality and hard work! Also, you might mention who does the ranking (possibly more important).
  - Siira 5y ago
    Naming them substantially decreases the credibility of the post, and increases the probability of it being an ad. Better not to name them.
- blaser-waffle 5y ago
  Name and Shame -- who was this shady org?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

threatofrain 5y ago

https://dfpi.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/337/2021/04/CFPL-Lambda-School-consent-order.pdf https://dfpi.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/337/2021/04/CFP...

luckylion 5y ago

> But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? That's the point, I believe. Lambda School was pretending their loans were protected from bankruptcy proceedings so students wouldn't consider it. It's somewhat common for corporations to pretend that laws don't exist. Even if only half of the customers believe them and don't sue, they'll save money.

elliekelly 5y ago

“Deceptive practices” is a commonly used legal term in consumer protection. It’s often used in conjunction with “unfair business practices” or “unfair and deceptive practices” depending on the state and what has been alleged.

detaro 5y ago

If you agree that it's an important detail, how is misrepresenting their status in the contract, and thus misleading people about their rights, not deceptive?

songqin 5y ago

What do you specifically find deceptive about Trilogy? Just curious, as I see them around me a lot.

bdcravens 5y ago
I can't speak to Trilogy specifically, but for many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  > padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers. I see this brought up quite a bit, and I don't really see the issue. They are offering their graduates jobs, so why should these jobs not count just like any other jobs?
  - boldslogan 5y ago
    Because the only way that would continue to work is they got more new students (at the bottom) to pay for the old students (at the top) jobs and it (the pyramid) would fall apart. In other words it looks like a pyramid scheme if the grads only get jobs as teachers.
    - tootahe45 5y ago
      You just described 80% of the tertiary education courses unis offer.
      - blaser-waffle 5y ago
        Lol yeah sounds like grad school. "Congrats on getting into the program, you're now adjunct faculty, the class you're teaching starts at 930am Monday." 5 years later maybe they have a piece of paper and maybe that impacts their job prospects.

jfrunyon 5y ago

> It is definitely important to note that that these loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? Is the point here that there was a population of Lambda students who weren't aware they could discharge their loan, and this contract prevision was preventing them from doing so? Or was the school deliberately making that process more difficult? The article makes none of that entirely clear. It makes it quite clear. The loan has always been dischargeable in bankruptcy. However, they had a provision in their contract stating otherwise, which was deceptive.

musicale 5y ago
Although it is harder to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, as I understand it they can be discharged in bankruptcy if the borrower can prove undue hardship (probably hard to do, especially with income-based repayment) or if 7 years have elapsed since the start of repayment. This does seem to violate the spirit of bankruptcy law as well as basic economics (presumably student loans consist of and are repaid with the same dollars that are used for other loans or unsecured debt) and has almost certainly helped universities raise tuition with impunity for decades while student loan debt has ballooned to more than $1T in the US.
- kelnos 5y ago
  You can thank a truly gross lobbying effort that culminated in a bill[0] passed in 2005 intended to curb "bankruptcy abuse" (a thing that was not actually a thing), and, among other things, greatly restricted how educational loans could be discharged in bankruptcy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_an...
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  > if the borrower can prove undue hardship (probably hard to do, especially with income-based repayment) Yeah, it's pretty hard to do. You have to have an "adversarial proceeding" (i.e. a lawyer from the Department of Education or whoever shows up and argues against you).

aerosmile 5y ago

You're right and wrong. You already touched on the latter in your edit, so let's focus on the former for a sec. I was not surprised at all to see your comment, since I walked away with the same impression - someone at a gov agency tried harder than usual to achieve the max juice out of this release. Learning in this thread that this is a brand new agency and that this might have been the very first case they were tasked with (hope I got that right), helped me complete the full picture.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy." To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery. In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.

peteretep 5y ago
I note this is the case in the UK too tho: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/debt-solutions/bankruptcy-2/bankruptcy-explained/debts-that-bankruptcy-covers/ https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/debt-soluti...
AdrianB1 5y ago
In my country personal bankruptcy does not exist, never did. For us the idea that in a 'free country' one can take a loan and declare bankruptcy not to pay it back sounds crazy. This is evidence of cultural differences, nothing else - definitely not 'free country' or education.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
koolba 5y ago
The argument for it is that without it a graduate with a large balance could default on their loan immediately after graduation. The classic example being a surgeon getting hundreds of thousands in loans for medical school, and then skipping out on paying them back when they begin making bank as a doctor.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Yes and it's a BS argument, because going through bankruptcy is not something to be taken lightly or something that you can "just do", because it's not only about "you owe X" but how well can you service your debt. Of course this argument was an excuse to inflate education prices and make lenders more interest as well.

pugio 5y ago

Could you comment a bit more about Trilogy? From what I understand, they provide a bootcamp as a service to be offered by other institutions, such as universities around the world. Do you have any personal experience of their deception or lack of quality?

mox1 5y ago
Agreed hopefully we get a response. I was an instructor for Trilogy, didn't really see any 'deceptive practices' in my couple years there.
- pugio 5y ago
  Would you be willing to speak a bit more about your experience there? I work on non-profit tech education, and am curious about effective/successful bootcamps. (My email is in my profile.)
- bdcravens 5y ago
  For many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.
lai-yin 5y ago
I was a student at Trilogy. Not sure what they mean. The course was fun. The good students leveled up in their careers. I certainly did.
- pugio 5y ago
  Would you be willing to speak a bit more about your experience there? I work on non-profit tech education, and am curious about effective/successful bootcamps. (My email is in my profile.)

pkdpic_y9k 5y ago

Totally valid but just feel like I have to throw in that I went to a bootcamp, was very suspicious from the earliest stages of consideration but found on the other side that all the friends I made there who attended-even the one that failed out and went to another bootcamp-went from part time jobs making less than 30k a year to legit software engineering positions making 60~120k in less than a year. Im still surprised that the whole thing wasn't a scam. That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now in terms of job placement, not sure how places like lambda differ...

brigandish 5y ago
> That said it was the most competitive and highest ranked bootcamp then and now You're allowed to say who it is - in fact, I think you should say who it is, reward quality and hard work! Also, you might mention who does the ranking (possibly more important).
- Siira 5y ago
  Naming them substantially decreases the credibility of the post, and increases the probability of it being an ad. Better not to name them.
blaser-waffle 5y ago
Name and Shame -- who was this shady org?