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Still sounds weird to me. I use an Android phone, I can unlock my phone at anytime using either face, fingerprint, or passcode. What exactly is the reason/rati

Still sounds weird to me. I use an Android phone, I can unlock my phone at anytime using either face, fingerprint, or passcode. What exactly is the reason/rationale that it has to fail on facial recognition first before proceeding to use passcode?

ASalazarMX 5y ago
> What exactly is the reason/rationale that it has to fail on facial recognition first before proceeding to use passcode? C O U R A G E Joke aside, it seems that Face ID was a tremendous technical effort so you could have instant access to your phone. Besides unlocking, there's no other serious application (memojis aside). The fingerprint reader was probably removed just to prop acceptance of Face ID. Also, Face ID is less secure. If you're detained or mugged, just looking at your phone will unlock it before you can react and look away. IMO, the 3D scanner should be on the other side, enhancing your pictures with 3D depth.
- kemayo 5y ago
  > IMO, the 3D scanner should be on the other side, enhancing your pictures with 3D depth. That's what the LIDAR sensor on the latest phones is for. It only gets used in photos for the portrait-mode stuff, admittedly.
  - ghostpepper 5y ago
    Off topic, and I know we're in the middle of an Apple-bashing thread, but the portrait mode on iPhone 12 is amazing. Portrait mode is Apple-speak for pseudo-depth-of-field, which is the effect that real cameras do that make the subject in focus but the background blurry. It makes photos look way more professional.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  > Also, Face ID is less secure. If you're detained or mugged, just looking at your phone will unlock it before you can react and look away Much easier to force someone to unlock the phone with their fingerprint than to force them to unlock with faceid if you have “Require attention” on. You can’t physically force someone to look in a certain direction, but you definitely can force them to tap their finger on a surface.
  - djhn 5y ago
    Long passcodes are still better.
    - acdha 5y ago
      You can't make a general assertion like that because “better” depends on different factors: * If you're concerned about someone who can see you typing, a biometric is better because they have far fewer chances to watch you — especially if you don't reboot outside of your home. * If you're concerned about actual adoption, a biometric is better because you remove the constant frictional password entry cost which causes a large fraction of users to use short, easily-entered passwords. * If you're concerned about someone who has enough access to construct a usable fingerprint / face facsimile but can't coerce you into providing a password or shoulder-surf it with a drone, a long password is better.
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    > You can’t physically force someone to look in a certain direction Excuse me, but this is ridiculously easier than forcing someone to use their fingerprint; just wait until they are distracted, show them the phone and ask them "what is this?". It unlocks in less than a second with "Require Attention" activated. We prank each other this way when we forget our phones around the house.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      We're not talking about pranks, we're talking about someone getting robbed. It will be pretty hard for the robber to "distract you" and spring the phone on you.
- asutekku 5y ago
  FaceID used 3D depth in perception, it’s not camera what it uses.
- twobitshifter 5y ago
  If you’re detained or mugged hold both the power and a volume button for 3 seconds.
  - behnamoh 5y ago
    Hard to do when you're busy getting mugged.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      You should set lockdown mode (enforce PIN/password authentication) before getting mugged. I don't know it's possible on iPhone, but possible on Android.
  - thebruce87m 5y ago
    Press the power button 5 times quickly. Warning: LOUD.
  - asiachick 5y ago
    except I was trying to use my phone to record being illegally detained
- behnamoh 5y ago
  I always preferred the fingerprint sensor over Face ID. You can unlock the phone before even taking it out of the pocket. At my desk, I can unlock the phone without leaning forward so it sees me. The only time that Face ID works (better) is when it's freezing cold and you don't want to take your gloves off to unlock the phone.
- jensvdh 5y ago
  If you're detained or mugged you have other problems to worry about. They can also threaten you with a knife to get your pin code or put your fingerprints on the phone. If anything face ID requires your eyes to be open, they can knock you out and use your fingerprints more easily.
  - dharmab 5y ago
    Law enforcement in most developed countries won't resort to violence to get your credentials but are happy to point your phone at your face. By the "they can just use violence" logic, no computer is secure and we should throw them all into the ocean. Security can improve the intermediate cases- focusing solely on the worst case is unproductive.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      They can also enforce you to use your fingerprint or face (in The Netherlands) but not PIN or password (in The Netherlands), both with proper (minimal) force. In UK, there's a law to force a user to give away their password. Which, IMO, is the same as being enforced to help your own conviction.
  - idownvoted 5y ago
    > * If you're detained or mugged you have other problems to worry about.* Did it ever cross your mind, that being detained for nothing is exactly the reason why don’t want the detainers to also get your digital identity?! Unlocking your phone against your will is exactly what the Communist ruled HK police thugs did to Hong Kong protesters before COVID made us all forget about their struggle.
- dwaite 5y ago
  > If you're detained or mugged, just looking at your phone will unlock it before you can react and look away. As far as hypothetical situations go, I prefer this over them cutting off my finger. More seriously, in a situation where I'm detained or mugged, there will be a lot of external factors which are pushing me to unlock my phone, be it via passcode or biometrics. FWIW, "SOS mode" (holding the power and volume up buttons) will purge information needed for biometrics to work and mandate a PIN on both TouchID and FaceID devices.
  - noodlesUK 5y ago
    Most fingerprint (and other biometric devices) sensors do liveness checks
    - AnonC 5y ago
      That expects all the muggers to know this fact and would avoid cutting fingers.
ssully 5y ago
I am guessing the rationale is that Face ID is supposed to be so good that you won't need to use your passcode. In regular use, Face ID unlocks my phone the moment I lift it; showing an "enter passcode" option button would be redundant because it's already unlocked. Obviously this falls apart with masks.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  I buy this theory, but it sounds like the result of some kind of internal politics, not anyone trying to do what’s best for the user.
patrickmcnamara 5y ago
I think it's slightly weird UI/UX to show the password prompt if FaceID will just instantly unlock the phone anyway (at least when not wearing a mask).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
kschwab 5y ago
Androids also have the option where you tell them not to lock if you're in your home (or other named places). Does iPhone support that?
- jensvdh 5y ago
  Yes, although home is probably the place where one tends to wear a mask the least.
- kiwijamo 5y ago
  I have an Android and don't have this option. Seems to be a manufacturer-specific feature.
  - kschwab 5y ago
    It's supposed to be part of base Android 5.0+. There is a problem and workaround: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3199592/android-smart-lock-trusted-places.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3199592/android-smart-...
    - kiwijamo 5y ago
      Yep definitely not on my Xiaomi Android 10 phone. I can do the steps in Google Maps but that doesn't trigger the Smart Lock. Also nothing in my settings for Smart Lock. Oh well.
- gumby 5y ago
  Great idea. Not everybody could us it but would be great for me.
skavi 5y ago
The only Android phone with secure face unlock was the Pixel 4, which didn’t have a fingerprint sensor. Some Samsung devices had iris unlock, which was also fairly secure, but even more finicky than face unlock.
- skavi 5y ago
  Correction: the Huawei Mate series also includes 3D face unlock. However, at least the initial version on the Mate 20 was not as secure as Face ID.
  - ngcc_hk 5y ago
    Guess you miss the memo. The whole thing is avoid the authority. Is there an authority behind that I do not certain. But lots of our brothers and sisters do and did.
diebeforei485 5y ago
> What exactly is the reason/rationale that it has to fail on facial recognition first before proceeding to use passcode? To better train the facial recognition system, perhaps.
- dwaite 5y ago
  Yes, a facial recognition failure followed by success or passcode unlock will result in the failures being used for model training.

ASalazarMX 5y ago

> What exactly is the reason/rationale that it has to fail on facial recognition first before proceeding to use passcode? C O U R A G E Joke aside, it seems that Face ID was a tremendous technical effort so you could have instant access to your phone. Besides unlocking, there's no other serious application (memojis aside). The fingerprint reader was probably removed just to prop acceptance of Face ID. Also, Face ID is less secure. If you're detained or mugged, just looking at your phone will unlock it before you can react and look away. IMO, the 3D scanner should be on the other side, enhancing your pictures with 3D depth.

kemayo 5y ago
> IMO, the 3D scanner should be on the other side, enhancing your pictures with 3D depth. That's what the LIDAR sensor on the latest phones is for. It only gets used in photos for the portrait-mode stuff, admittedly.
- ghostpepper 5y ago
  Off topic, and I know we're in the middle of an Apple-bashing thread, but the portrait mode on iPhone 12 is amazing. Portrait mode is Apple-speak for pseudo-depth-of-field, which is the effect that real cameras do that make the subject in focus but the background blurry. It makes photos look way more professional.
ryanlol 5y ago
> Also, Face ID is less secure. If you're detained or mugged, just looking at your phone will unlock it before you can react and look away Much easier to force someone to unlock the phone with their fingerprint than to force them to unlock with faceid if you have “Require attention” on. You can’t physically force someone to look in a certain direction, but you definitely can force them to tap their finger on a surface.
- djhn 5y ago
  Long passcodes are still better.
  - acdha 5y ago
    You can't make a general assertion like that because “better” depends on different factors: * If you're concerned about someone who can see you typing, a biometric is better because they have far fewer chances to watch you — especially if you don't reboot outside of your home. * If you're concerned about actual adoption, a biometric is better because you remove the constant frictional password entry cost which causes a large fraction of users to use short, easily-entered passwords. * If you're concerned about someone who has enough access to construct a usable fingerprint / face facsimile but can't coerce you into providing a password or shoulder-surf it with a drone, a long password is better.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  > You can’t physically force someone to look in a certain direction Excuse me, but this is ridiculously easier than forcing someone to use their fingerprint; just wait until they are distracted, show them the phone and ask them "what is this?". It unlocks in less than a second with "Require Attention" activated. We prank each other this way when we forget our phones around the house.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    We're not talking about pranks, we're talking about someone getting robbed. It will be pretty hard for the robber to "distract you" and spring the phone on you.
asutekku 5y ago
FaceID used 3D depth in perception, it’s not camera what it uses.
twobitshifter 5y ago
If you’re detained or mugged hold both the power and a volume button for 3 seconds.
- behnamoh 5y ago
  Hard to do when you're busy getting mugged.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    You should set lockdown mode (enforce PIN/password authentication) before getting mugged. I don't know it's possible on iPhone, but possible on Android.
- thebruce87m 5y ago
  Press the power button 5 times quickly. Warning: LOUD.
- asiachick 5y ago
  except I was trying to use my phone to record being illegally detained
behnamoh 5y ago
I always preferred the fingerprint sensor over Face ID. You can unlock the phone before even taking it out of the pocket. At my desk, I can unlock the phone without leaning forward so it sees me. The only time that Face ID works (better) is when it's freezing cold and you don't want to take your gloves off to unlock the phone.
jensvdh 5y ago
If you're detained or mugged you have other problems to worry about. They can also threaten you with a knife to get your pin code or put your fingerprints on the phone. If anything face ID requires your eyes to be open, they can knock you out and use your fingerprints more easily.
- dharmab 5y ago
  Law enforcement in most developed countries won't resort to violence to get your credentials but are happy to point your phone at your face. By the "they can just use violence" logic, no computer is secure and we should throw them all into the ocean. Security can improve the intermediate cases- focusing solely on the worst case is unproductive.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    They can also enforce you to use your fingerprint or face (in The Netherlands) but not PIN or password (in The Netherlands), both with proper (minimal) force. In UK, there's a law to force a user to give away their password. Which, IMO, is the same as being enforced to help your own conviction.
- idownvoted 5y ago
  > * If you're detained or mugged you have other problems to worry about.* Did it ever cross your mind, that being detained for nothing is exactly the reason why don’t want the detainers to also get your digital identity?! Unlocking your phone against your will is exactly what the Communist ruled HK police thugs did to Hong Kong protesters before COVID made us all forget about their struggle.
dwaite 5y ago
> If you're detained or mugged, just looking at your phone will unlock it before you can react and look away. As far as hypothetical situations go, I prefer this over them cutting off my finger. More seriously, in a situation where I'm detained or mugged, there will be a lot of external factors which are pushing me to unlock my phone, be it via passcode or biometrics. FWIW, "SOS mode" (holding the power and volume up buttons) will purge information needed for biometrics to work and mandate a PIN on both TouchID and FaceID devices.
- noodlesUK 5y ago
  Most fingerprint (and other biometric devices) sensors do liveness checks
  - AnonC 5y ago
    That expects all the muggers to know this fact and would avoid cutting fingers.

ssully 5y ago

I am guessing the rationale is that Face ID is supposed to be so good that you won't need to use your passcode. In regular use, Face ID unlocks my phone the moment I lift it; showing an "enter passcode" option button would be redundant because it's already unlocked. Obviously this falls apart with masks.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
I buy this theory, but it sounds like the result of some kind of internal politics, not anyone trying to do what’s best for the user.

patrickmcnamara 5y ago

I think it's slightly weird UI/UX to show the password prompt if FaceID will just instantly unlock the phone anyway (at least when not wearing a mask).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

kschwab 5y ago

Androids also have the option where you tell them not to lock if you're in your home (or other named places). Does iPhone support that?

jensvdh 5y ago
Yes, although home is probably the place where one tends to wear a mask the least.
kiwijamo 5y ago
I have an Android and don't have this option. Seems to be a manufacturer-specific feature.
- kschwab 5y ago
  It's supposed to be part of base Android 5.0+. There is a problem and workaround: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3199592/android-smart-lock-trusted-places.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3199592/android-smart-...
  - kiwijamo 5y ago
    Yep definitely not on my Xiaomi Android 10 phone. I can do the steps in Google Maps but that doesn't trigger the Smart Lock. Also nothing in my settings for Smart Lock. Oh well.
gumby 5y ago
Great idea. Not everybody could us it but would be great for me.

skavi 5y ago

The only Android phone with secure face unlock was the Pixel 4, which didn’t have a fingerprint sensor. Some Samsung devices had iris unlock, which was also fairly secure, but even more finicky than face unlock.

skavi 5y ago
Correction: the Huawei Mate series also includes 3D face unlock. However, at least the initial version on the Mate 20 was not as secure as Face ID.
- ngcc_hk 5y ago
  Guess you miss the memo. The whole thing is avoid the authority. Is there an authority behind that I do not certain. But lots of our brothers and sisters do and did.

diebeforei485 5y ago

> What exactly is the reason/rationale that it has to fail on facial recognition first before proceeding to use passcode? To better train the facial recognition system, perhaps.

dwaite 5y ago
Yes, a facial recognition failure followed by success or passcode unlock will result in the failures being used for model training.