7 ms·

Viewpoints Research Institute concluded its operations at the beginning of 2018

83 points by bulka 5y ago

beaconstudios 5y ago
For those who are unaware, this was headed by Alan Kay and was researching various concepts in human-computer interaction, including ideas about the future of coding (http://www.vpri.org/work/ifnct.htm http://www.vpri.org/work/ifnct.htm). It's a real shame to see them close up shop, we need that kind of research to continue.
- david927 5y ago
  I know of a 10 room mansion in Tuscany, Italy that could house a group of future of coding researchers for a year, starting in September. It would work out to €500/month for room and board. But would anyone be up for it?
  - _1tan 5y ago
    here
  - toomim 5y ago
    I'm interested, and building something like that in Hawaii.
    - david927 5y ago
      You’re currently building something like this in Hawaii? Let’s talk! My email is in my profile.
    - cw 5y ago
      I support this idea in Hawaii. Some of us are already planted on Oahu.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    > It would work out to €500/month for room and board €500/mo with food per month? That's suspiciously affordable. What's the catch? (My Red Bull addiction is currently costing me ~$300/mo alone right now, seriously)
    - dreamcompiler 5y ago
      Compared with other popular European countries, Italy is cheap. But I don't know if it's that cheap.
      - david927 5y ago
        The room is €200; €300 was back-of-the-napkin for general meals and it could be low, but when you buy in bulk it can be quite inexpensive and Italy is definitely cheap.
        DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
        To me, the cost of buying cooking ingredients isn’t a concern in the slightest - but I don’t enjoy cooking. I’d hire a full-time live-in chef if I could afford it. But I can’t, so I mostly live-off Soylent.
        DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
        I honestly have no idea why my above reply has been downvoted to -4 for simply describing my habits...
    - quickthrower2 5y ago
      That says more about Red Bull than renting a room outside of a major metro area in a cheap country.
  - bulka 5y ago
    I don't think the physical colocation is the key here.
    - david927 5y ago
      It’s not the key but it’s a key. If you want to talk about the key, that’s a much bigger discussion. Personally I always thought Alan (with all due respect to obviously one of the greatest luminaries of our time) had it wrong. Point of view is not worth 80 IQ points. First, that smacks of a time when we used to conflate IQ with intelligence and honestly think someone with 150 was 5 smarter than someone with 145. No, intelligence and knowledge just get you to the table. Point of view is why you’re there. It’s like saying Picasso’s style gave him points towards his technique. Having a good line allowed him to express his style. So what’s the key? Insight. And while that’s much harder to understand and evaluate, that’s the ticket.
  - koo6 5y ago
    you pay or they pay?
    - david927 5y ago
      Well, they pay. There's no IP transfer here; you own your own IP. That said, I'm hoping that, via donations, there will be spots for those that can't pay anything at all. But that's a lot of speculation for something that is still very much up in the air.
- ironchief 5y ago
  Every org that hired Alan Kay as a fellow was closed - Apple Advanced Technology Group - Walt Disney Imagineering Fellows - HP Advanced Software Research - VPRI
- _0ffh 5y ago
  And all the most interesting stuff I know from the VPRI is from Ian Piamurta. His coffeinated beverages series of interpreters is very cool. https://piumarta.com/ https://piumarta.com/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
DennisP 5y ago
Dang. I used to look forward to the 20KLOC OS/GUI/IDE. I guess they never really achieved that. Maybe it was just time for Alan Kay to retire.
- cztomsik 5y ago
  yeah OMeta - interesting idea thanks for noting this, I was unaware (busy with other things lately)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- chillpenguin 5y ago
  Is it true that they never achieved it? I thought they basically did. You can see the system in action in various talks by Alan Kay.
  - chubot 5y ago
    I would like to see it too, and I even referred to it in a comment a few days ago. Did they release the code or just describe it in papers and talks? A cursory look at the website and Googling says the latter, which is a shame. The research would be more impactful with source code. There's no reason not to release the source, and if you fail to do so, you can't really complain if practitioners don't pick up those techniques :) I think OMeta was related and that is released, but IMO it's not that practical. ----- Thread from 5 years ago that is not that flattering of their work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686325 Oh it actually points to some more source: https://github.com/damelang/nile https://github.com/damelang/nile Although I think it's easy to pick on different parts; there's definitely value to having a holistic system and design. But it would be better if we could see all of it instead of just the parts
  - loup-vaillant 5y ago
    They did basically achieve it. There's one missing component though: the kernel. One big reason kernels have to be gigantic nowadays is the stupidly high diversity of hardware interfaces. Every USB device, every graphics card, network card, printer… has its own peculiar way of talking to the rest of the computer, and that shorcoming has to be compensated by bolting a driver on top. For each OS. See Casey Muratory on the 30 million lines problem: https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031 https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031 Solve that, and then ideas from VPRI can shine.
nfoz 5y ago
This hits home for me.... it was an unspoken dream of mine to apply to join VPRI, motivated by a side-project that I believed falls under their interests. I never did apply. Which was probably the right call; I was naive, lacking any relevant credential, and I don't even really know what they are or if they take 'applications'. But still. Sometimes it's those weird little dreams, that we wouldn't dare tell anyone, that keep us going. I worked on that project for years before running out of steam. So now I sigh and acknowledge a door is long since closed. Would love to spend my time somehow funded, even minimally, to build the crazy ideas that I believe in and think could actually matter, instead of the much less interesting or important work of my day-job. But I suppose that's most of us here on HN.

83 points by bulka 5y ago

For those who are unaware, this was headed by Alan Kay and was researching various concepts in human-computer interaction, including ideas about the future of coding (http://www.vpri.org/work/ifnct.htm http://www.vpri.org/work/ifnct.htm). It's a real shame to see them close up shop, we need that kind of research to continue.

david927 5y ago
I know of a 10 room mansion in Tuscany, Italy that could house a group of future of coding researchers for a year, starting in September. It would work out to €500/month for room and board. But would anyone be up for it?
- _1tan 5y ago
  here
- toomim 5y ago
  I'm interested, and building something like that in Hawaii.
  - david927 5y ago
    You’re currently building something like this in Hawaii? Let’s talk! My email is in my profile.
  - cw 5y ago
    I support this idea in Hawaii. Some of us are already planted on Oahu.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  > It would work out to €500/month for room and board €500/mo with food per month? That's suspiciously affordable. What's the catch? (My Red Bull addiction is currently costing me ~$300/mo alone right now, seriously)
  - dreamcompiler 5y ago
    Compared with other popular European countries, Italy is cheap. But I don't know if it's that cheap.
    - david927 5y ago
      The room is €200; €300 was back-of-the-napkin for general meals and it could be low, but when you buy in bulk it can be quite inexpensive and Italy is definitely cheap.
      - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
        To me, the cost of buying cooking ingredients isn’t a concern in the slightest - but I don’t enjoy cooking. I’d hire a full-time live-in chef if I could afford it. But I can’t, so I mostly live-off Soylent.
        DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
        I honestly have no idea why my above reply has been downvoted to -4 for simply describing my habits...
  - quickthrower2 5y ago
    That says more about Red Bull than renting a room outside of a major metro area in a cheap country.
- bulka 5y ago
  I don't think the physical colocation is the key here.
  - david927 5y ago
    It’s not the key but it’s a key. If you want to talk about the key, that’s a much bigger discussion. Personally I always thought Alan (with all due respect to obviously one of the greatest luminaries of our time) had it wrong. Point of view is not worth 80 IQ points. First, that smacks of a time when we used to conflate IQ with intelligence and honestly think someone with 150 was 5 smarter than someone with 145. No, intelligence and knowledge just get you to the table. Point of view is why you’re there. It’s like saying Picasso’s style gave him points towards his technique. Having a good line allowed him to express his style. So what’s the key? Insight. And while that’s much harder to understand and evaluate, that’s the ticket.
- koo6 5y ago
  you pay or they pay?
  - david927 5y ago
    Well, they pay. There's no IP transfer here; you own your own IP. That said, I'm hoping that, via donations, there will be spots for those that can't pay anything at all. But that's a lot of speculation for something that is still very much up in the air.
ironchief 5y ago
Every org that hired Alan Kay as a fellow was closed - Apple Advanced Technology Group - Walt Disney Imagineering Fellows - HP Advanced Software Research - VPRI
_0ffh 5y ago
And all the most interesting stuff I know from the VPRI is from Ian Piamurta. His coffeinated beverages series of interpreters is very cool. https://piumarta.com/ https://piumarta.com/

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

DennisP 5y ago

Dang. I used to look forward to the 20KLOC OS/GUI/IDE. I guess they never really achieved that. Maybe it was just time for Alan Kay to retire.

cztomsik 5y ago
yeah OMeta - interesting idea thanks for noting this, I was unaware (busy with other things lately)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
chillpenguin 5y ago
Is it true that they never achieved it? I thought they basically did. You can see the system in action in various talks by Alan Kay.
- chubot 5y ago
  I would like to see it too, and I even referred to it in a comment a few days ago. Did they release the code or just describe it in papers and talks? A cursory look at the website and Googling says the latter, which is a shame. The research would be more impactful with source code. There's no reason not to release the source, and if you fail to do so, you can't really complain if practitioners don't pick up those techniques :) I think OMeta was related and that is released, but IMO it's not that practical. ----- Thread from 5 years ago that is not that flattering of their work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686325 Oh it actually points to some more source: https://github.com/damelang/nile https://github.com/damelang/nile Although I think it's easy to pick on different parts; there's definitely value to having a holistic system and design. But it would be better if we could see all of it instead of just the parts
- loup-vaillant 5y ago
  They did basically achieve it. There's one missing component though: the kernel. One big reason kernels have to be gigantic nowadays is the stupidly high diversity of hardware interfaces. Every USB device, every graphics card, network card, printer… has its own peculiar way of talking to the rest of the computer, and that shorcoming has to be compensated by bolting a driver on top. For each OS. See Casey Muratory on the 30 million lines problem: https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031 https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0031 Solve that, and then ideas from VPRI can shine.

nfoz 5y ago

This hits home for me.... it was an unspoken dream of mine to apply to join VPRI, motivated by a side-project that I believed falls under their interests. I never did apply. Which was probably the right call; I was naive, lacking any relevant credential, and I don't even really know what they are or if they take 'applications'. But still. Sometimes it's those weird little dreams, that we wouldn't dare tell anyone, that keep us going. I worked on that project for years before running out of steam. So now I sigh and acknowledge a door is long since closed. Would love to spend my time somehow funded, even minimally, to build the crazy ideas that I believe in and think could actually matter, instead of the much less interesting or important work of my day-job. But I suppose that's most of us here on HN.