5 ms·

The idea of a semitone in Western classical music is historical not (just) tonal.

by devnonymous 5y ago

goto11 5y ago
True, but that does not mean you can just space notes in a scale randomly.
- devnonymous 5y ago
  Hmm, I guess someone should tell those people, like Like Tolgahan Çoğulu who are writing music in microtonal scales with 19, 24 or 31 notes in a scale, that their notes spacing is random. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tone_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tone_system
  - goto11 5y ago
    The spacings are not random, they are still based on ratios. They just include more intervals in (what we call) the octave. The linked article actually explains the math pretty well.
    - devnonymous 5y ago
      Ah alright, I finally understand you. What you meant to say is the reason why Western classical music is built on the 12 note chromatic scale is because the musicians used the math! It has nothing to do with history. Sound about right?
      - goto11 5y ago
        Not exactly, although I think I understand what you are getting at. What I meant was that the interval between a major third and fourth in a 12-tone chromatic scale has to be a semitone due to math, not due to some historical accident or decision. It might be an accident of history that we use a 12-step scale in the first place though, since you can have arbitrary many intervals in an octave - but you can't just divide the octave in arbitrarily places and get music out of it. The intervals still have to be ratios. (Well I'm sure some avant-garde composer have tried making music with intervals that are not ratios just to be clever, but I hope you get my point!)
      - kaoD 5y ago
        Although I agree with you... didn't Pythagoras derive the pythagorean tuning of diatonic doing the math with the 3:2 ratio? I know near zero music history, but I was under the impression that that's the evolution from diatonic scales and eventually into our western music system.
        goto11 5y ago
        Yes, intervals are just ratios of numbers, corresponding to frequency ratios. 2:1 is an octave, 3:2 is a fifth, 4:3 a fourth and so on. I didn't even know this was controversial. Of course a lot of other stuff in music and music theory is due to history and tradition. For example the names of the intervals (octave, fourth, fifth etc.) presumes a 7-note scale. Using 7 as reference is tradition, e.g. the pentatonic scale has 5 notes.
        kaoD 5y ago
        > Using 7 as reference is tradition, e.g. the pentatonic scale has 5. That's our point.
        goto11 5y ago
        Ok, but that is kind of orthogonal to the point I was making. I was just stating that it follows from the math that the notes in a 7-note scale are not evenly spaced. The same is true for a pentatonic scale, for the same reason: The intervals corresponds to the simplest ratios (2:3, 3:4 etc.) but these do not in turn correspond to divide the octave evenly.

The idea of a semitone in Western classical music is historical not (just) tonal.

goto11 5y ago

True, but that does not mean you can just space notes in a scale randomly.

devnonymous 5y ago
Hmm, I guess someone should tell those people, like Like Tolgahan Çoğulu who are writing music in microtonal scales with 19, 24 or 31 notes in a scale, that their notes spacing is random. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_equal_temperament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tone_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tone_system
- goto11 5y ago
  The spacings are not random, they are still based on ratios. They just include more intervals in (what we call) the octave. The linked article actually explains the math pretty well.
  - devnonymous 5y ago
    Ah alright, I finally understand you. What you meant to say is the reason why Western classical music is built on the 12 note chromatic scale is because the musicians used the math! It has nothing to do with history. Sound about right?
    - goto11 5y ago
      Not exactly, although I think I understand what you are getting at. What I meant was that the interval between a major third and fourth in a 12-tone chromatic scale has to be a semitone due to math, not due to some historical accident or decision. It might be an accident of history that we use a 12-step scale in the first place though, since you can have arbitrary many intervals in an octave - but you can't just divide the octave in arbitrarily places and get music out of it. The intervals still have to be ratios. (Well I'm sure some avant-garde composer have tried making music with intervals that are not ratios just to be clever, but I hope you get my point!)
    - kaoD 5y ago
      Although I agree with you... didn't Pythagoras derive the pythagorean tuning of diatonic doing the math with the 3:2 ratio? I know near zero music history, but I was under the impression that that's the evolution from diatonic scales and eventually into our western music system.
      - goto11 5y ago
        Yes, intervals are just ratios of numbers, corresponding to frequency ratios. 2:1 is an octave, 3:2 is a fifth, 4:3 a fourth and so on. I didn't even know this was controversial. Of course a lot of other stuff in music and music theory is due to history and tradition. For example the names of the intervals (octave, fourth, fifth etc.) presumes a 7-note scale. Using 7 as reference is tradition, e.g. the pentatonic scale has 5 notes.
        kaoD 5y ago
        > Using 7 as reference is tradition, e.g. the pentatonic scale has 5. That's our point.
        goto11 5y ago
        Ok, but that is kind of orthogonal to the point I was making. I was just stating that it follows from the math that the notes in a 7-note scale are not evenly spaced. The same is true for a pentatonic scale, for the same reason: The intervals corresponds to the simplest ratios (2:3, 3:4 etc.) but these do not in turn correspond to divide the octave evenly.