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Oh on a philosophical level it is quite unfair. It's not fair at all that all humans are not regarded as equals. It's really unfair that I should be withheld fr

Oh on a philosophical level it is quite unfair. It's not fair at all that all humans are not regarded as equals. It's really unfair that I should be withheld from visiting or living on a piece of the planet because there happens the be a group of people on it that made a "nation" and the "nation" has invisible "borders" and the "borders" are by "law" not penetrable by people from my "nation". But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. It is extremely unfair to the people who are also trying to immigrate to the US, but do so by entering lotteries, applying for GCs and all.

fastfinner 15y ago
May I learn the reason of the down-vote? I am answering to the issue of the fairness of citizenship-by-birth raised in the parent. I draw a distinction between entrenched inequality in world order and the more amenable inequalities.
- trustfundbaby 15y ago
  I didn't downvote you but I bet its for this "Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes" The guy didn't choose to be put in that situation, that decision was made for him. I think that's deserving of some empathy ... but that's just me.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.
  - freshfunk 15y ago
    You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone else who is in the line is also hoping for a better life. So what justifies someone cutting? In this specific case, he had no choice in the matter (put on a plane as a kid) so I think he should be allowed to stay. But every other adult is, in my opinion, cutting in line.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.
      - freshfunk 15y ago
        Again, you're just reframing the argument in order to make it convenient for yourself. I understand your position and, philosophically, it's an interesting one to take. But if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. In the world, we are citizens of nations and citizenship is defined by laws. In the US, that citizenship can be given through birth. Is that fair? Maybe not. But life's not fair. America has established a legal immigration system in order to (try to) make it fair. Simply ignoring that whole system and questioning the basic order of things seems like just an excuse to cut in line.
        wnight 15y ago
        > if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. Yeah. It's just what the first people to go somewhere say when someone else tries to join them. "Take off, we first settlers don't want you here." We don't recognize first-posters as owning the thread, or (except in the USA) first-solvers owning the formula, so why should we recognize first-squatters owning the land? > It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. Not at all. The concept of doing whatever you want is firmly established in the real world. Your adoptive countrymen weren't welcomed here (or at least, not in much of 'here'). They came by force and trick, murdering and stealing. At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace.
wnight 15y ago
> But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Many undocumented immigrants are. They're ignoring it. And, if you do catch and deport them, at great cost, you're just cutting one more local job. Congrats.

fastfinner 15y ago

May I learn the reason of the down-vote? I am answering to the issue of the fairness of citizenship-by-birth raised in the parent. I draw a distinction between entrenched inequality in world order and the more amenable inequalities.

trustfundbaby 15y ago
I didn't downvote you but I bet its for this "Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes" The guy didn't choose to be put in that situation, that decision was made for him. I think that's deserving of some empathy ... but that's just me.
dennisgorelik 15y ago
You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.
- freshfunk 15y ago
  You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone else who is in the line is also hoping for a better life. So what justifies someone cutting? In this specific case, he had no choice in the matter (put on a plane as a kid) so I think he should be allowed to stay. But every other adult is, in my opinion, cutting in line.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.
    - freshfunk 15y ago
      Again, you're just reframing the argument in order to make it convenient for yourself. I understand your position and, philosophically, it's an interesting one to take. But if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. In the world, we are citizens of nations and citizenship is defined by laws. In the US, that citizenship can be given through birth. Is that fair? Maybe not. But life's not fair. America has established a legal immigration system in order to (try to) make it fair. Simply ignoring that whole system and questioning the basic order of things seems like just an excuse to cut in line.
      - wnight 15y ago
        > if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry. Yeah. It's just what the first people to go somewhere say when someone else tries to join them. "Take off, we first settlers don't want you here." We don't recognize first-posters as owning the thread, or (except in the USA) first-solvers owning the formula, so why should we recognize first-squatters owning the land? > It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. Not at all. The concept of doing whatever you want is firmly established in the real world. Your adoptive countrymen weren't welcomed here (or at least, not in much of 'here'). They came by force and trick, murdering and stealing. At least today's undocumented immigrants live in peace.

wnight 15y ago

> But such is the case. If Jose or anyone else wants to change this inherent unfairness they can do that. Many undocumented immigrants are. They're ignoring it. And, if you do catch and deport them, at great cost, you're just cutting one more local job. Congrats.