6 ms·

I don't think retail makes that connection, also when there is a will there is a political way. Maybe deflationary preference with a moratorium on student debt

I don't think retail makes that connection, also when there is a will there is a political way. Maybe deflationary preference with a moratorium on student debt and mortgages. Point being: people want to sit on their couch and enrich their net worth without doing any work

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
seoaeu 5y ago
> Point being: people want to sit on their couch and enrich their net worth without doing any work If you have more debt than you do cash in your back account, then inflation can enrich your net worth without you doing any work.
- kybernetikos 5y ago
  And this is in fact the case for almost everyone who has a mortgage (i.e. most of the middle class).
- ObserverNeutral 5y ago
  If you are not the US government or a AAA+ company such as Microsoft ...then your creditors will get inflation back from you in the form of interest and then some. Never in a million years the regular borrower would be able to increase their net worth with inflation. Regular borrowers can't borrow anywhere near the consensus projected inflation rate.
  - kybernetikos 5y ago
    Regular borrowers income increase somewhat in line with inflation. Houses bought on interest payments that seemed difficult to manage become easy to manage within a few years. I know a large number of people at the moment who have ended up with an impressive property portfolio without even trying all that hard. They bought early in their career, and the value of the property they bought inflated, their income inflated, and their debt didn't keep pace.
    - ObserverNeutral 5y ago
      Again. Back to the narrative and communication issue. People ascribe credit for their rising income and increasing salary to their performance on the job....some more humble ascribe it their employer and their boss. That's who takes credit for it. For sure not inflation and for sure it's not the Fed with their 2% target. Inflation is in all the wrong places with regards to the narrative, for one reason or another only the negatives are outlined and the population somehow is very scared of it. Deflation is in the opposite spot. When deflation happens the culprit in the narrative is the economic recession/depression and the wealthy who played roulette in the stock market etc. The negatives of deflation are only known to academics, wheras the positives are known to everybody (e.g. currency strenght of the USD when you go on a trip to Mexico) It is clear to me that this might offend the economics professor, but that's the reality of it. That's the reality we all have to trade on. Narrative is very important.
kybernetikos 5y ago
> people want to sit on their couch and enrich their net worth without doing any work That doesn't scale. It's not possible for society to offer this to a majority of people in any short term scenario, because if 'enrich their net worth' means anything beyond a number going up, there needs to be increased production of goods and services that they consume. That means that you can only get this if you win the risk lottery. Longer term, if we get massive levels of automated production, the number of opportunities for this kind of life can increase, but deflation is much more likely to diminish the production capacity of a society than increase it. In an economy in deflation the pressure is for wages to go down - either by reducing the number of jobs, or by reducing what they pay. It's hard to imagine a society accepting such a situation happily.
- ObserverNeutral 5y ago
  Nobody is thinking about what you just said before buying bitcoin. And you know it. And actually they might not be as ignorant as you might think. You have no control over Macroeconomics so you might as well play the game in order to have "your number going up" and let the Macroeconomic chips fall where they may. Regardless of where the macroeconomics chips fall...you'd be better off with a higher number than a lower number.
  - kybernetikos 5y ago
    > you'd be better off with a higher number than a lower number. A small proportion of a big pie can be much more filling than a large proportion of a small pie. But yes, whether running a whole economy on a deflationary currency is a good idea is an entirely separate question to whether some use of bitcoin makes sense. Having said that, and speaking for at least myself, the (in my opinion) misguided narrative around deflation and 'store of value' that is common in bitcoin core world makes me much more interested in bitcoin cash and ethereum commmunities where niche economic philosophies I don't agree with are not as common as in bitcoin core. There are so many interesting things we can do with smart contracts and a widespread settlement system that doesn't have gatekeepers. Creating value is much more interesting than storing it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

seoaeu 5y ago

> Point being: people want to sit on their couch and enrich their net worth without doing any work If you have more debt than you do cash in your back account, then inflation can enrich your net worth without you doing any work.

kybernetikos 5y ago
And this is in fact the case for almost everyone who has a mortgage (i.e. most of the middle class).
ObserverNeutral 5y ago
If you are not the US government or a AAA+ company such as Microsoft ...then your creditors will get inflation back from you in the form of interest and then some. Never in a million years the regular borrower would be able to increase their net worth with inflation. Regular borrowers can't borrow anywhere near the consensus projected inflation rate.
- kybernetikos 5y ago
  Regular borrowers income increase somewhat in line with inflation. Houses bought on interest payments that seemed difficult to manage become easy to manage within a few years. I know a large number of people at the moment who have ended up with an impressive property portfolio without even trying all that hard. They bought early in their career, and the value of the property they bought inflated, their income inflated, and their debt didn't keep pace.
  - ObserverNeutral 5y ago
    Again. Back to the narrative and communication issue. People ascribe credit for their rising income and increasing salary to their performance on the job....some more humble ascribe it their employer and their boss. That's who takes credit for it. For sure not inflation and for sure it's not the Fed with their 2% target. Inflation is in all the wrong places with regards to the narrative, for one reason or another only the negatives are outlined and the population somehow is very scared of it. Deflation is in the opposite spot. When deflation happens the culprit in the narrative is the economic recession/depression and the wealthy who played roulette in the stock market etc. The negatives of deflation are only known to academics, wheras the positives are known to everybody (e.g. currency strenght of the USD when you go on a trip to Mexico) It is clear to me that this might offend the economics professor, but that's the reality of it. That's the reality we all have to trade on. Narrative is very important.

kybernetikos 5y ago

> people want to sit on their couch and enrich their net worth without doing any work That doesn't scale. It's not possible for society to offer this to a majority of people in any short term scenario, because if 'enrich their net worth' means anything beyond a number going up, there needs to be increased production of goods and services that they consume. That means that you can only get this if you win the risk lottery. Longer term, if we get massive levels of automated production, the number of opportunities for this kind of life can increase, but deflation is much more likely to diminish the production capacity of a society than increase it. In an economy in deflation the pressure is for wages to go down - either by reducing the number of jobs, or by reducing what they pay. It's hard to imagine a society accepting such a situation happily.

ObserverNeutral 5y ago
Nobody is thinking about what you just said before buying bitcoin. And you know it. And actually they might not be as ignorant as you might think. You have no control over Macroeconomics so you might as well play the game in order to have "your number going up" and let the Macroeconomic chips fall where they may. Regardless of where the macroeconomics chips fall...you'd be better off with a higher number than a lower number.
- kybernetikos 5y ago
  > you'd be better off with a higher number than a lower number. A small proportion of a big pie can be much more filling than a large proportion of a small pie. But yes, whether running a whole economy on a deflationary currency is a good idea is an entirely separate question to whether some use of bitcoin makes sense. Having said that, and speaking for at least myself, the (in my opinion) misguided narrative around deflation and 'store of value' that is common in bitcoin core world makes me much more interested in bitcoin cash and ethereum commmunities where niche economic philosophies I don't agree with are not as common as in bitcoin core. There are so many interesting things we can do with smart contracts and a widespread settlement system that doesn't have gatekeepers. Creating value is much more interesting than storing it.