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first scrapping old but reliable cars with cash incentives to buy "clean" diesel. Then dieselgate pushing for gasoline powered cars and getting pennies on the d

first scrapping old but reliable cars with cash incentives to buy "clean" diesel. Then dieselgate pushing for gasoline powered cars and getting pennies on the dollar back. Now killing ICE alltogether. Not going to buy VW Group cars anytime soon.

oblio 5y ago
> Now killing ICE all together. The writing is on the wall. In Europe several big cities as well as countries have announced that they'll ban diesel engines in about 10 years, max. Some have announced that they'll ban all ICE cars in about 15-20 years.
- patrickk 5y ago
  Even bigger than the city by city ban is the huge, and ever more demanding EU commission fines on car makers, measured by grams of CO2 averaged across the fleet. So what's happening is VW is trying to get ahead of the enormous fines which will make it impossible to keep selling larger sized ICE cars in the EU (e.g. SUVs which are becoming ever more popular in Europe). > According to the EU, fleet emissions in 2018 were 120g/km, which means automakers need a 21 percent reduction overall to avoid fines that could total as much as 33 billion euros this year, according to some estimates. Each gram over the limit, per vehicle, will cost automakers 95 euros. > Each automaker has a different target, based on the average mass of the vehicles they sell, and only 95 percent of sales are measured in 2020, meaning that some high-polluting cars won't count. Even so, analyst ISI Evercore has warned that the "2020-21 CO2 regulation poses the biggest risk to the auto industry in recent memory." Source: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/how-automakers-plan-avoid-co2-fines-europe https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/how-automakers-plan-a... EDIT: Some countries, e.g. Ireland[1] and the UK[2], have decided to ban all new ICE cars completely from 2030. [1] https://www.newstalk.com/news/electric-vehicle-ownership-should-be-looked-at-from-an-equity-point-of-view-says-expert-1117366 https://www.newstalk.com/news/electric-vehicle-ownership-sho... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/18/the-uk-plans-to-ban-sales-of-diesel-and-petrol-cars-from-2030.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/18/the-uk-plans-to-ban-sales-of...
- IneffablePigeon 5y ago
  It's even sooner than that in places. The UK has announced a ban on new ICE vehicles from 2030. To be seen how closely that's followed through on, we have a long way to go on charging infrastructure.
- iagovar 5y ago
  They can ban ICE cars as much as they want. More than half Europe won't buy electric because they are too expensive. And not only that, you can't plan to travel in a lower end electric with their ranges. Recharge is very slow. You can buy a dirt cheap second hand ICE, and it will give you that, you'll recharge in a minute, and most proven models are easy and cheap to repair. Electric cars turns out they do fail, and when they do it is super expensive. I really really want to have one, but currently comparing an electric to, say, a Fiat Panda, it just doesn't make sense for most Europeans.
  - zelos 5y ago
    What's the alternative? The status quo isn't an option, so something has to replace it.
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      Synthetic fuel. Works in current cars and it's cleaner than current fuel: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/porsche-begin-producing-synthetic-fuels-2022 https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/porsche-beg...
      - fogihujy 5y ago
        Synthetic fuel and biofuels will probably be required for several decades until legacy equipment like farming machinery (not to mention military veichles) has been replaced/modernized. Regular cars, on the other hand, will probably be mostly electric within 15-20 years. The main issues are power-grid development and EV range. I suspect those problems will be handled within 10 years.
        sbehlasp 5y ago
        No one talks about the biggest disadvantage of EVs which is extraction of lithium which is a threat to environment and people who are involved in it. Plus a major disadvantage is where these dead batteries end up! land fills which again is biggest threat to environment. Even batteries are recyclable but up to what extent one day they will end up in landfills [https://www.res-ev.co.uk/problems-with-ev/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20big%20problems,available%20compared%20to%20petrol%20stations https://www.res-ev.co.uk/problems-with-ev/#:~:text=One%20of%....] . There are some other options like hydrogen powered cars which do not harm environment any way, i think more research should be done to promote them or any other absolutely cleaner biofuel powered cars

oblio 5y ago

> Now killing ICE all together. The writing is on the wall. In Europe several big cities as well as countries have announced that they'll ban diesel engines in about 10 years, max. Some have announced that they'll ban all ICE cars in about 15-20 years.

patrickk 5y ago
Even bigger than the city by city ban is the huge, and ever more demanding EU commission fines on car makers, measured by grams of CO2 averaged across the fleet. So what's happening is VW is trying to get ahead of the enormous fines which will make it impossible to keep selling larger sized ICE cars in the EU (e.g. SUVs which are becoming ever more popular in Europe). > According to the EU, fleet emissions in 2018 were 120g/km, which means automakers need a 21 percent reduction overall to avoid fines that could total as much as 33 billion euros this year, according to some estimates. Each gram over the limit, per vehicle, will cost automakers 95 euros. > Each automaker has a different target, based on the average mass of the vehicles they sell, and only 95 percent of sales are measured in 2020, meaning that some high-polluting cars won't count. Even so, analyst ISI Evercore has warned that the "2020-21 CO2 regulation poses the biggest risk to the auto industry in recent memory." Source: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/how-automakers-plan-avoid-co2-fines-europe https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/how-automakers-plan-a... EDIT: Some countries, e.g. Ireland[1] and the UK[2], have decided to ban all new ICE cars completely from 2030. [1] https://www.newstalk.com/news/electric-vehicle-ownership-should-be-looked-at-from-an-equity-point-of-view-says-expert-1117366 https://www.newstalk.com/news/electric-vehicle-ownership-sho... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/18/the-uk-plans-to-ban-sales-of-diesel-and-petrol-cars-from-2030.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/18/the-uk-plans-to-ban-sales-of...
IneffablePigeon 5y ago
It's even sooner than that in places. The UK has announced a ban on new ICE vehicles from 2030. To be seen how closely that's followed through on, we have a long way to go on charging infrastructure.
iagovar 5y ago
They can ban ICE cars as much as they want. More than half Europe won't buy electric because they are too expensive. And not only that, you can't plan to travel in a lower end electric with their ranges. Recharge is very slow. You can buy a dirt cheap second hand ICE, and it will give you that, you'll recharge in a minute, and most proven models are easy and cheap to repair. Electric cars turns out they do fail, and when they do it is super expensive. I really really want to have one, but currently comparing an electric to, say, a Fiat Panda, it just doesn't make sense for most Europeans.
- zelos 5y ago
  What's the alternative? The status quo isn't an option, so something has to replace it.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    Synthetic fuel. Works in current cars and it's cleaner than current fuel: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/porsche-begin-producing-synthetic-fuels-2022 https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/porsche-beg...
    - fogihujy 5y ago
      Synthetic fuel and biofuels will probably be required for several decades until legacy equipment like farming machinery (not to mention military veichles) has been replaced/modernized. Regular cars, on the other hand, will probably be mostly electric within 15-20 years. The main issues are power-grid development and EV range. I suspect those problems will be handled within 10 years.
      - sbehlasp 5y ago
        No one talks about the biggest disadvantage of EVs which is extraction of lithium which is a threat to environment and people who are involved in it. Plus a major disadvantage is where these dead batteries end up! land fills which again is biggest threat to environment. Even batteries are recyclable but up to what extent one day they will end up in landfills [https://www.res-ev.co.uk/problems-with-ev/#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20big%20problems,available%20compared%20to%20petrol%20stations https://www.res-ev.co.uk/problems-with-ev/#:~:text=One%20of%....] . There are some other options like hydrogen powered cars which do not harm environment any way, i think more research should be done to promote them or any other absolutely cleaner biofuel powered cars