12 ms·

Show HN: Comparison of Bitcoin, USD, Gold and Silver as a Store of Time

12 points by AlexKaul 6y ago

ForHackernews 6y ago
Okay, I want my time back. How do I cash out?
- disruptalot 6y ago
  You can't. Along with energy, it's the most finite asset you have. Which is why it's critical that you store it in the best medium possible.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Is this the MongoDB theory of storage, one that doesn't imply retrieval?
- brulard 6y ago
  You stored one day in 2013, now you can take 500 days off your job and live off that profit instead.
roenxi 6y ago
This graph says Bitcoin is up something like 500x since 2013. That isn't a store of time, it is a speculative return. Gold, silver & the US dollar all did pretty much what they are advertised and expected to do (go flat, flat and steady down in value respectively). Nobody knows what Bitcoin is going to do next. What Bitcoin does has nothing to do with storage. Obviously we'd all rather have had Bitcoin from 2013 to 2021 than storage, but hindsight makes these decisions easy.
- tom_mellior 6y ago
  Both gold and silver had ~2x swings in the last two years (https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAG&to=USD https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAG&to=USD, https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAU&to=USD https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAU&to=USD). Not exactly "flat".
- disruptalot 6y ago
  Every position is more or less speculative. This is why "asset management" is a thing. Nobody knows what gold or fiat is going to do next either: - Fiat can be advertised in whichever way but ultimately there is no guarantee things will behave the same as it's centrally planned. The pandemic triggered unprecedented action from the money printer. - Producing more efficient ways of mining gold, discovering new reserves on the planet or outwith will trigger a re pricing of gold's value. The only meaningful horizon is time, and so far Bitcoin is doing well.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Nobody knows what anything is going to do for sure, but that doesn't mean we know nothing. Things that go way way up quickly tend not to be stable. Shit can change, but the probability of gold massively changing in value is much less than bitcoin taking a massive swing.
    - disruptalot 6y ago
      Valid point. I wouldn't say large swings is necessarily an indication of failure though. It is expected for Bitcoin to swing wildly because in contrast to gold, it's very accessible and in this age information is quick and erratic.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        Its a failure if you want a stable store of value heged against inflation, which is what gold is. That doesn't make bitcoin a failure in general, just not suitable for the same purpose gold is. Same way stocks are not used for the same thing gold is. > it's very accessible and in this age information is quick and erratic. That seems like an untrue statement. Assets like gold are very easy to buy, depending on where you live (and laws against bitcoin) probably much easier than bitcoin which has weird laws restricting it.
        alwillis 6y ago
        Its a failure if you want a stable store of value heged against inflation, which is what gold is. That may have been true in the past but not likely to be the case going forward. Stable is in the eye of the beholder; over the coming years, much of the $10 trillion dollars of the gold market will flow to bitcoin. Just in general, Bitcoin is kicking gold’s ass: $1 Invested in Bitcoin vs Gold over 11.4 years Bitcoin:$71,133,300.00 | Gold:$1.66 https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-vs-gold/ https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-vs-gold/
- tromp 6y ago
  A PoW coin with forever fixed block reward is a store of mining time. In a coin with a 1 minute blocktime and 60 coin block subsidy, each coin represents exactly one second of mining.
  - Cobragri 6y ago
    that is Gold' s monetary policy,mined infinitely.But seems scarce than Gold.
cj 6y ago
How about adding the S&P index to the list? That is where many people store their excess earnings (ie. retirement accounts). I know very few people who store their excess income as cash (or Bitcoin, or gold).
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Somewhat easy to do here: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/chart?p=BTC-USD#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- https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/chart?p=BTC-USD#eyJp...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
itsdsmurrell 6y ago
You should add a few usefulness graphs, and then include Bitcoin Cash.
puddingnomeat 6y ago
if data only supports your priors, is it useful?
Cobragri 6y ago
Gold and silver is suppressed and manipulated with fractional reserve banking, Btc is immune to this.. so far at least now.

12 points by AlexKaul 6y ago

ForHackernews 6y ago

Okay, I want my time back. How do I cash out?

disruptalot 6y ago
You can't. Along with energy, it's the most finite asset you have. Which is why it's critical that you store it in the best medium possible.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Is this the MongoDB theory of storage, one that doesn't imply retrieval?
brulard 6y ago
You stored one day in 2013, now you can take 500 days off your job and live off that profit instead.

roenxi 6y ago

This graph says Bitcoin is up something like 500x since 2013. That isn't a store of time, it is a speculative return. Gold, silver & the US dollar all did pretty much what they are advertised and expected to do (go flat, flat and steady down in value respectively). Nobody knows what Bitcoin is going to do next. What Bitcoin does has nothing to do with storage. Obviously we'd all rather have had Bitcoin from 2013 to 2021 than storage, but hindsight makes these decisions easy.

tom_mellior 6y ago
Both gold and silver had ~2x swings in the last two years (https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAG&to=USD https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAG&to=USD, https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAU&to=USD https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=XAU&to=USD). Not exactly "flat".
disruptalot 6y ago
Every position is more or less speculative. This is why "asset management" is a thing. Nobody knows what gold or fiat is going to do next either: - Fiat can be advertised in whichever way but ultimately there is no guarantee things will behave the same as it's centrally planned. The pandemic triggered unprecedented action from the money printer. - Producing more efficient ways of mining gold, discovering new reserves on the planet or outwith will trigger a re pricing of gold's value. The only meaningful horizon is time, and so far Bitcoin is doing well.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Nobody knows what anything is going to do for sure, but that doesn't mean we know nothing. Things that go way way up quickly tend not to be stable. Shit can change, but the probability of gold massively changing in value is much less than bitcoin taking a massive swing.
  - disruptalot 6y ago
    Valid point. I wouldn't say large swings is necessarily an indication of failure though. It is expected for Bitcoin to swing wildly because in contrast to gold, it's very accessible and in this age information is quick and erratic.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      Its a failure if you want a stable store of value heged against inflation, which is what gold is. That doesn't make bitcoin a failure in general, just not suitable for the same purpose gold is. Same way stocks are not used for the same thing gold is. > it's very accessible and in this age information is quick and erratic. That seems like an untrue statement. Assets like gold are very easy to buy, depending on where you live (and laws against bitcoin) probably much easier than bitcoin which has weird laws restricting it.
      - alwillis 6y ago
        Its a failure if you want a stable store of value heged against inflation, which is what gold is. That may have been true in the past but not likely to be the case going forward. Stable is in the eye of the beholder; over the coming years, much of the $10 trillion dollars of the gold market will flow to bitcoin. Just in general, Bitcoin is kicking gold’s ass: $1 Invested in Bitcoin vs Gold over 11.4 years Bitcoin:$71,133,300.00 | Gold:$1.66 https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-vs-gold/ https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-vs-gold/
tromp 6y ago
A PoW coin with forever fixed block reward is a store of mining time. In a coin with a 1 minute blocktime and 60 coin block subsidy, each coin represents exactly one second of mining.
- Cobragri 6y ago
  that is Gold' s monetary policy,mined infinitely.But seems scarce than Gold.

cj 6y ago

How about adding the S&P index to the list? That is where many people store their excess earnings (ie. retirement accounts). I know very few people who store their excess income as cash (or Bitcoin, or gold).

pwinnski 6y ago
Somewhat easy to do here: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/chart?p=BTC-USD#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- https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/chart?p=BTC-USD#eyJp...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

itsdsmurrell 6y ago

You should add a few usefulness graphs, and then include Bitcoin Cash.

puddingnomeat 6y ago

if data only supports your priors, is it useful?

Cobragri 6y ago

Gold and silver is suppressed and manipulated with fractional reserve banking, Btc is immune to this.. so far at least now.