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These numbers are outrageous, and only solidify my already skeptic stance towards cryptos in general. In an era where people are encouraged to reduce their carb

These numbers are outrageous, and only solidify my already skeptic stance towards cryptos in general. In an era where people are encouraged to reduce their carbon emissions to protect the future of the planet, it seems irresponsible and stupid to waste hundreds of TWh annualy on solving completely pointless equations. Western governments need to step in and put an end to this madness.

marksbrown 6y ago
We need a functioning Carbon trading/tax regime. I don't care if does something useless with a computer, that's literally most people, I care that we don't make people pay the price of their insanity.
- grlass 6y ago
  Indeed, targetting a specific industry seems like too focussed and approach that won't actually solve much. Especially when you have e.g. the aluminium smelting industry that uses around 10x more energy*. Arguably more useful, but the externalities of using unclean energy for that process, and all other unclean energy consuming industries, should still be priced in. If cryptocurrency miners want to use that energy, they can knock themselves out, but they should at least be strongly economically incentivised to do it in a CO2-minimizing way. * (15,000 kWh per tonne) * (63.2 million tonnes annually) = around 948 TWh sources: - https://aluminiumleader.com/production/how_aluminium_is_produced/ https://aluminiumleader.com/production/how_aluminium_is_prod... - https://agmetalminer.com/2015/11/24/power-costs-the-production-primary-aluminum/ https://agmetalminer.com/2015/11/24/power-costs-the-producti...
- ddeyar 6y ago
  And better infrastrucure. If theres a need for NFTs then just do it on a already PoS blockchain like tezos. The migration should not be that much of a deal. Infrastructure and community is there. Tools which would help to migrate smart contracts also. I think it is really the lack of knowledge, that there is a blockchain solving the actual problem.
  - danaris 6y ago
    There is not, and will (likely) never be, a need for NFTs. They are a solution looking for a problem. Some (mostly already very wealthy) people want them. That is not the same as a genuine need.
    - ddeyar 6y ago
      People are free to do what they want with their money. But it's just stupid to do it on a monster like ethereum. You could burn toiletpaper to power a datacenter. But it is stupid.
matheusmoreira 6y ago
Completely pointless? These equations guarantee the integrity of the distributed ledgers that power cryptocurrencies. Governments "stepping in" is exactly what motivated the creation of these things in the first place.
- codebolt 6y ago
  Blockchain technology doesn't really do anything in practical terms that a conventional, simple ledgering system wouldn't have been able to do much better and without wasting so much energy.
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    Conventional systems require centralized third parties and allow easy government intervention. The energy costs are nothing compared to the value humanity receives from decentralized ledgers. Have you ever had all the funds in your bank account confiscated by the government? This happened decades ago to every citizen in my country. Have you ever had your bank deny you the money you need because everyone keeps trying to withdraw at the same time? Have you ever seen the government impose a $100/person/day cap on bank withdrawals? You're telling me I have to pay some energy costs in order to make sure stuff like that never happens again? I pay it gladly.
    - codebolt 6y ago
      Except with Bitcoin, you're now relying on the liquidity of actors like Tether to get your money out, which is even more centralised and less trustworthy, certainly, than any bank subject to western regulations and backed by our governments guarantees. Congratulations on destroying the environment to make an act of defiance that achieves less than nothing.
      - matheusmoreira 6y ago
        Binance has a BTC/BRL trading pair and peer-to-peer trading. I don't see how I'm depending on tether at all. I agree that centralized exchanges are a single point of failure but they're necessary for the time being. It's always possible to withdraw all assets to local wallets, it just makes trading harder. Cryptocurrency has never been about "cashing out" though. The whole point is to be able to pay for things with the coins themselves, without the need to convert to fiat money. I believe Monero is the only one which will one day achieve this goal. I'm not destroying the environment either. All the energy consumption of bitcoin doesn't add up to even 1% of global consumption. There are far worse offenders here yet somehow people are up in arms about non-fungible tokens. Why? Cryptocurrency is an easy and convenient target compared to entrenched and powerful industries like fossil fuels. Also, "achieves less than nothing" is just factually wrong. By using even the pseudonymous bitcoin you make it that much harder for the government to seize your assets. They can't just order the bank to do it. They'd have to literally seize your computer in order to obtain those coins. Monero raises the bar even higher and changes the balance of power so thoroughly it's subversive.

marksbrown 6y ago

We need a functioning Carbon trading/tax regime. I don't care if does something useless with a computer, that's literally most people, I care that we don't make people pay the price of their insanity.

grlass 6y ago
Indeed, targetting a specific industry seems like too focussed and approach that won't actually solve much. Especially when you have e.g. the aluminium smelting industry that uses around 10x more energy*. Arguably more useful, but the externalities of using unclean energy for that process, and all other unclean energy consuming industries, should still be priced in. If cryptocurrency miners want to use that energy, they can knock themselves out, but they should at least be strongly economically incentivised to do it in a CO2-minimizing way. * (15,000 kWh per tonne) * (63.2 million tonnes annually) = around 948 TWh sources: - https://aluminiumleader.com/production/how_aluminium_is_produced/ https://aluminiumleader.com/production/how_aluminium_is_prod... - https://agmetalminer.com/2015/11/24/power-costs-the-production-primary-aluminum/ https://agmetalminer.com/2015/11/24/power-costs-the-producti...
ddeyar 6y ago
And better infrastrucure. If theres a need for NFTs then just do it on a already PoS blockchain like tezos. The migration should not be that much of a deal. Infrastructure and community is there. Tools which would help to migrate smart contracts also. I think it is really the lack of knowledge, that there is a blockchain solving the actual problem.
- danaris 6y ago
  There is not, and will (likely) never be, a need for NFTs. They are a solution looking for a problem. Some (mostly already very wealthy) people want them. That is not the same as a genuine need.
  - ddeyar 6y ago
    People are free to do what they want with their money. But it's just stupid to do it on a monster like ethereum. You could burn toiletpaper to power a datacenter. But it is stupid.

matheusmoreira 6y ago

Completely pointless? These equations guarantee the integrity of the distributed ledgers that power cryptocurrencies. Governments "stepping in" is exactly what motivated the creation of these things in the first place.

codebolt 6y ago
Blockchain technology doesn't really do anything in practical terms that a conventional, simple ledgering system wouldn't have been able to do much better and without wasting so much energy.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  Conventional systems require centralized third parties and allow easy government intervention. The energy costs are nothing compared to the value humanity receives from decentralized ledgers. Have you ever had all the funds in your bank account confiscated by the government? This happened decades ago to every citizen in my country. Have you ever had your bank deny you the money you need because everyone keeps trying to withdraw at the same time? Have you ever seen the government impose a $100/person/day cap on bank withdrawals? You're telling me I have to pay some energy costs in order to make sure stuff like that never happens again? I pay it gladly.
  - codebolt 6y ago
    Except with Bitcoin, you're now relying on the liquidity of actors like Tether to get your money out, which is even more centralised and less trustworthy, certainly, than any bank subject to western regulations and backed by our governments guarantees. Congratulations on destroying the environment to make an act of defiance that achieves less than nothing.
    - matheusmoreira 6y ago
      Binance has a BTC/BRL trading pair and peer-to-peer trading. I don't see how I'm depending on tether at all. I agree that centralized exchanges are a single point of failure but they're necessary for the time being. It's always possible to withdraw all assets to local wallets, it just makes trading harder. Cryptocurrency has never been about "cashing out" though. The whole point is to be able to pay for things with the coins themselves, without the need to convert to fiat money. I believe Monero is the only one which will one day achieve this goal. I'm not destroying the environment either. All the energy consumption of bitcoin doesn't add up to even 1% of global consumption. There are far worse offenders here yet somehow people are up in arms about non-fungible tokens. Why? Cryptocurrency is an easy and convenient target compared to entrenched and powerful industries like fossil fuels. Also, "achieves less than nothing" is just factually wrong. By using even the pseudonymous bitcoin you make it that much harder for the government to seize your assets. They can't just order the bank to do it. They'd have to literally seize your computer in order to obtain those coins. Monero raises the bar even higher and changes the balance of power so thoroughly it's subversive.