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See: Analog vs Digital[1]. I said there were differences. A lot of people putting words into my mouth. I was actually alive and aware listening to pre-1980s v

See: Analog vs Digital[1]. I said there were differences. A lot of people putting words into my mouth. I was actually alive and aware listening to pre-1980s vinyls, 8-tracks, cassettes, CDs, etc. unlike some of you. CDs added additional frequencies into the high range, which people thought sounded crisp and new, but it never had the warmth of cassettes and vinyl. The waveform thing is true but I never said that it was the reason for the difference in warmth. [1]- https://innersense-inc.com/analog-versus-digital/ https://innersense-inc.com/analog-versus-digital/

NobodyNada 6y ago
> CDs added additional frequencies into the high range, which people thought sounded crisp and new, but it never had the warmth of cassettes and vinyl. Sure, there is an audible difference between digital audio and vintage analog equipment — but it has nothing to do with quality problems in digital audio. In fact, it’s exactly the opposite: vinyl and cassettes deliver low-quality, heavily distorted audio (with a dynamic range equivalent to that of 5 or 6 bit digital audio). This does create a distinctive “warm” tone, and a lot of people really like the sound (or the nostalgia) created by this distortion. The article you linked does not demonstrate quality problems with digital audio; it is a bunch of nonsense intended to sell a product. First of all, it compares a “digital square wave” with an “analog sine wave”, and remarks that “the digital signal does not follow the smooth flow of its analog compliment.” Of course they look different, they’re not the same wave! A square wave is “supposed” to look blocky, it’s not a digital vs. analog thing. At least it mentions the Shannon-Nyquist theorem and gets one thing right: “there is no difference whatsoever between an analog sine wave and a digital one” But then it totally blows it again with its comparison of a “digital” square wave to a “natural” one, observing that the “natural” square wave is more curved. Again, this is nonsense because you’re not comparing the same wave! The “digital” image is of an ideal, mathematically pure square wave, whereas the “natural” image is bandlimited. The first mathematically pure wave cannot exist in the real world, because it would require infinite bandwidth — the voltage would have to change instantly. In fact, a digital signal is bandlimited; it’s just a bad illustration. The digital square wave, when converted to analog, will not include any frequencies above half the sampling rate, making it match whatever our bandlimited analog signal is supposed to look like. Then the article goes into full-on snake oil mode, trying to convince you that “technology that resolves that problem, by creating infinite phase, is currently available” if only you buy their “Sensorium™ LSV III Function Generators and Altitudinal Oscillators [that] utilize a polynomial transition region algorithm”. This is very much nonsense; by the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem, you can reproduce a bandlimited waveform exactly from a sampled signal, no matter how “complex” your waveform is. For a more detailed overview about how and why digital audio works, I recommend this video: https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
- sramsay 6y ago
  > Then the article goes into full-on snake oil mode, trying to convince you that “technology that resolves that problem, by creating infinite phase, is currently available” if only you buy their “Sensorium™ LSV III Function Generators and Altitudinal Oscillators [that] utilize a polynomial transition region algorithm”. Definitely my favorite part. It's complete gibberish, but because it uses audio nerd words (phase, oscillator, function generator) it sounds like it might not be.
ratww 6y ago
> CDs added additional frequencies into the high range CDs didn't add anything. The treble was always there, or was added in mixing/mastering for creative reasons. Vinyl and Cassete simply didn't or couldn't reproduce those frequencies. You could, of course, remove the frequencies on CD to match Vinyl or Cassette, but they were kept (or even added) in CD for artistic reasons.
sramsay 6y ago
Right. I was actually alive too. What we're trying to tell you, is that the kind of explanation offered in that article is absolute bullshit. It's common! People make this kind of argument all the time. It's still wrong, for the reasons eloquently outlined in the replies. I think the thing that trips people up is that they think that a digital process can somehow fail to make something happen to an analogue speaker cone that an analog process can do effortlessly because of the nature of the process (or the medium). It's not true. Do you like vinyl better? Or CDs better? Or reel-to-reel tape? You'll get no argument from me, because "better" is a pretty subjective thing. But the following propositions are absurd: 1. Vinyl has "higher fidelity" than CDs. 2. CDs "add treble" to recordings. 3. Digital processes can never accurately reproduce analog phenomena. 4. Analog "warmth" is only achievable with analog equipment. 5. No one ever over-compressed their tracks until CDs (or Pro Tools, or DAT tapes, or whatever) came along, and so these things are to blame. I could go on. I'm not accusing you of having said all of these things; they're just examples of things are absolutely not true, but which get said all the time, and which start to seem like truth because everyone is nodding.
- klingon78 6y ago
  CDs do emit music over higher frequencies stronger than vinyl. That is not a lie. The lies about lies are lies. Some people can’t hear it. I can. I can hear a TV when it’s on, and I can hear harmonics of Wifi, so when I say I know it’s true- I know it’s true.
  - klingon78 6y ago
    And I know Wifi is electromagnetic radiation, so there must be some phonon interaction somehow.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    They -can- emit higher frequencies with better fidelity (and DR), however that's a product of mastering the CD, not something that need occur in the CD by its very nature. So the way you're stating it is incorrect. A CD can replicate anything a cassette/vinyl can do (that is perceptible by human hearing). Now whether industry respects that or not is up to the company/band/whatever making the CD and what they choose to emphasize.

NobodyNada 6y ago

> CDs added additional frequencies into the high range, which people thought sounded crisp and new, but it never had the warmth of cassettes and vinyl. Sure, there is an audible difference between digital audio and vintage analog equipment — but it has nothing to do with quality problems in digital audio. In fact, it’s exactly the opposite: vinyl and cassettes deliver low-quality, heavily distorted audio (with a dynamic range equivalent to that of 5 or 6 bit digital audio). This does create a distinctive “warm” tone, and a lot of people really like the sound (or the nostalgia) created by this distortion. The article you linked does not demonstrate quality problems with digital audio; it is a bunch of nonsense intended to sell a product. First of all, it compares a “digital square wave” with an “analog sine wave”, and remarks that “the digital signal does not follow the smooth flow of its analog compliment.” Of course they look different, they’re not the same wave! A square wave is “supposed” to look blocky, it’s not a digital vs. analog thing. At least it mentions the Shannon-Nyquist theorem and gets one thing right: “there is no difference whatsoever between an analog sine wave and a digital one” But then it totally blows it again with its comparison of a “digital” square wave to a “natural” one, observing that the “natural” square wave is more curved. Again, this is nonsense because you’re not comparing the same wave! The “digital” image is of an ideal, mathematically pure square wave, whereas the “natural” image is bandlimited. The first mathematically pure wave cannot exist in the real world, because it would require infinite bandwidth — the voltage would have to change instantly. In fact, a digital signal is bandlimited; it’s just a bad illustration. The digital square wave, when converted to analog, will not include any frequencies above half the sampling rate, making it match whatever our bandlimited analog signal is supposed to look like. Then the article goes into full-on snake oil mode, trying to convince you that “technology that resolves that problem, by creating infinite phase, is currently available” if only you buy their “Sensorium™ LSV III Function Generators and Altitudinal Oscillators [that] utilize a polynomial transition region algorithm”. This is very much nonsense; by the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem, you can reproduce a bandlimited waveform exactly from a sampled signal, no matter how “complex” your waveform is. For a more detailed overview about how and why digital audio works, I recommend this video: https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

sramsay 6y ago
> Then the article goes into full-on snake oil mode, trying to convince you that “technology that resolves that problem, by creating infinite phase, is currently available” if only you buy their “Sensorium™ LSV III Function Generators and Altitudinal Oscillators [that] utilize a polynomial transition region algorithm”. Definitely my favorite part. It's complete gibberish, but because it uses audio nerd words (phase, oscillator, function generator) it sounds like it might not be.

ratww 6y ago

> CDs added additional frequencies into the high range CDs didn't add anything. The treble was always there, or was added in mixing/mastering for creative reasons. Vinyl and Cassete simply didn't or couldn't reproduce those frequencies. You could, of course, remove the frequencies on CD to match Vinyl or Cassette, but they were kept (or even added) in CD for artistic reasons.

sramsay 6y ago

Right. I was actually alive too. What we're trying to tell you, is that the kind of explanation offered in that article is absolute bullshit. It's common! People make this kind of argument all the time. It's still wrong, for the reasons eloquently outlined in the replies. I think the thing that trips people up is that they think that a digital process can somehow fail to make something happen to an analogue speaker cone that an analog process can do effortlessly because of the nature of the process (or the medium). It's not true. Do you like vinyl better? Or CDs better? Or reel-to-reel tape? You'll get no argument from me, because "better" is a pretty subjective thing. But the following propositions are absurd: 1. Vinyl has "higher fidelity" than CDs. 2. CDs "add treble" to recordings. 3. Digital processes can never accurately reproduce analog phenomena. 4. Analog "warmth" is only achievable with analog equipment. 5. No one ever over-compressed their tracks until CDs (or Pro Tools, or DAT tapes, or whatever) came along, and so these things are to blame. I could go on. I'm not accusing you of having said all of these things; they're just examples of things are absolutely not true, but which get said all the time, and which start to seem like truth because everyone is nodding.

klingon78 6y ago
CDs do emit music over higher frequencies stronger than vinyl. That is not a lie. The lies about lies are lies. Some people can’t hear it. I can. I can hear a TV when it’s on, and I can hear harmonics of Wifi, so when I say I know it’s true- I know it’s true.
- klingon78 6y ago
  And I know Wifi is electromagnetic radiation, so there must be some phonon interaction somehow.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  They -can- emit higher frequencies with better fidelity (and DR), however that's a product of mastering the CD, not something that need occur in the CD by its very nature. So the way you're stating it is incorrect. A CD can replicate anything a cassette/vinyl can do (that is perceptible by human hearing). Now whether industry respects that or not is up to the company/band/whatever making the CD and what they choose to emphasize.