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Some people lie like they breathe, it’s automatic, and doesn’t have any meaning. It’s not meant to be malicious.

by nullserver 6y ago

jolux 6y ago
Does the intent really matter?
- codyb 6y ago
  Of course the intent matters. There’s quite a difference between a mother in a warzone holding their kid and saying “it’s going to be alright” to assuage their fears and Bernie Madoff saying he was going to invest people’s money judiciously.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  It matters, in the same way intent matters when you cut somebody with a blade. Was it attempted murder? Self-defense? Carelessness? Accident? Surgery? Lies, similarly, are fundamentally destructive - a lie is a piece of invalid data that corrupts, to smaller or greater extent, the minds of everyone who come in contact with it. Incorporating a lie in your reasoning moves you further from accurately perceiving reality. Sometimes, very rarely, a lie may be justified - the best of available options, even accounting for second-order effects. Usually, it isn't. But it matters whether the lie was accidental, good-faith, attempt at poisoning someone's mind, or wanton disregard for peoples' ability to grasp reality.
  - mc32 6y ago
    I would hope lies to protect another person from harm are allowable. We suspect an enemy of the revolution is being harbored in hour house. Are you hiding this person? (forgive the preposterous example, but I hope you get my intent). It could be someone hiding from a jealous lover, someone hiding from loan sharks, etc.
    - nullserver 6y ago
      Not being Murdered is one level. Did you do the dishes is another. Have kids. Did you eat chocolate bar? No!!!! So how did the chocolate get all over your face?
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      That's why I mentioned surgery at the end of my comparison with blade cuts. Much like cutting into a body is traumatic for it, but is sometimes require to save it, sometimes the ethical benefits of a lie far outweigh the costs. Yours is a very good example. There are also more fuzzy ones. Since I mentioned medicine: there's an ongoing discussion in the medical community as to if and when lies by omission are OK - is there a point to informing the patient about something they can do nothing about, when if they learn about it, it would cause them great amount of emotional distress? Caring for health doesn't mean just servicing the body like a mechanic, but also catering for person's emotional well-being. The point I was trying to make is that lies, by default, are bad things (much like being cut by a blade). Intent, care and consequences are what can make lies very bad, or - sometimes - good.
    - nullserver 6y ago
      Growing up in Church, not lying was a big issue. 10 Commandment and all. Caused a lot of heartache for a lot of people. Met lots of missionaries who Preached in extremely bad countries and situations. Quite annoyed to find out it was a translation issue. You don’t lie then testify against people. Which is a highly specific and malicious sort of lie.
- hc-taway 6y ago
  > Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? --to speak the truth and to pay your debts --no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition. Intent very much matters. It's right there at the beginning of the reading on the topic. (The Republic, Book I)
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Nice example, I remember that from Ethics back in college. But there's lots of Greeks that would say Yes! Give them their weapons. See, you have no right to decide another's state of mind is 'not right'. That's taking their agency from them, treating them like an incompetent child. Like trying to 'murder their Self' or some such. You can say for instance "I know where they are but you're upset. Can we talk about this before you do something you'll regret?"
- nullserver 6y ago
  It can. If it’s meant to hurt. Then that’s a bad person. Otherwise it’s a personality flaw that needs to be addressed. Like the “pull my finger uncle” It’s very troublesome regardless.
tartoran 6y ago
I agree and I do know several people like that. It does have the intent of propping up the reality they live in but it is inconsistent and quite laughable to be honest. I find another type of liars a bit more dangerous, the kind that can put a mask of sincerity and when they can take advantage they do lie horribly. My point was that some people lie, others tell the truth and in the face of death where inexistence is next door, only the narcissists would probably lie to leave a grandiose legacy, the rest, I think they have no incentive to do so.

Some people lie like they breathe, it’s automatic, and doesn’t have any meaning. It’s not meant to be malicious.

jolux 6y ago

Does the intent really matter?

codyb 6y ago
Of course the intent matters. There’s quite a difference between a mother in a warzone holding their kid and saying “it’s going to be alright” to assuage their fears and Bernie Madoff saying he was going to invest people’s money judiciously.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
It matters, in the same way intent matters when you cut somebody with a blade. Was it attempted murder? Self-defense? Carelessness? Accident? Surgery? Lies, similarly, are fundamentally destructive - a lie is a piece of invalid data that corrupts, to smaller or greater extent, the minds of everyone who come in contact with it. Incorporating a lie in your reasoning moves you further from accurately perceiving reality. Sometimes, very rarely, a lie may be justified - the best of available options, even accounting for second-order effects. Usually, it isn't. But it matters whether the lie was accidental, good-faith, attempt at poisoning someone's mind, or wanton disregard for peoples' ability to grasp reality.
- mc32 6y ago
  I would hope lies to protect another person from harm are allowable. We suspect an enemy of the revolution is being harbored in hour house. Are you hiding this person? (forgive the preposterous example, but I hope you get my intent). It could be someone hiding from a jealous lover, someone hiding from loan sharks, etc.
  - nullserver 6y ago
    Not being Murdered is one level. Did you do the dishes is another. Have kids. Did you eat chocolate bar? No!!!! So how did the chocolate get all over your face?
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    That's why I mentioned surgery at the end of my comparison with blade cuts. Much like cutting into a body is traumatic for it, but is sometimes require to save it, sometimes the ethical benefits of a lie far outweigh the costs. Yours is a very good example. There are also more fuzzy ones. Since I mentioned medicine: there's an ongoing discussion in the medical community as to if and when lies by omission are OK - is there a point to informing the patient about something they can do nothing about, when if they learn about it, it would cause them great amount of emotional distress? Caring for health doesn't mean just servicing the body like a mechanic, but also catering for person's emotional well-being. The point I was trying to make is that lies, by default, are bad things (much like being cut by a blade). Intent, care and consequences are what can make lies very bad, or - sometimes - good.
  - nullserver 6y ago
    Growing up in Church, not lying was a big issue. 10 Commandment and all. Caused a lot of heartache for a lot of people. Met lots of missionaries who Preached in extremely bad countries and situations. Quite annoyed to find out it was a translation issue. You don’t lie then testify against people. Which is a highly specific and malicious sort of lie.
hc-taway 6y ago
> Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? --to speak the truth and to pay your debts --no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition. Intent very much matters. It's right there at the beginning of the reading on the topic. (The Republic, Book I)
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Nice example, I remember that from Ethics back in college. But there's lots of Greeks that would say Yes! Give them their weapons. See, you have no right to decide another's state of mind is 'not right'. That's taking their agency from them, treating them like an incompetent child. Like trying to 'murder their Self' or some such. You can say for instance "I know where they are but you're upset. Can we talk about this before you do something you'll regret?"
nullserver 6y ago
It can. If it’s meant to hurt. Then that’s a bad person. Otherwise it’s a personality flaw that needs to be addressed. Like the “pull my finger uncle” It’s very troublesome regardless.

tartoran 6y ago

I agree and I do know several people like that. It does have the intent of propping up the reality they live in but it is inconsistent and quite laughable to be honest. I find another type of liars a bit more dangerous, the kind that can put a mask of sincerity and when they can take advantage they do lie horribly. My point was that some people lie, others tell the truth and in the face of death where inexistence is next door, only the narcissists would probably lie to leave a grandiose legacy, the rest, I think they have no incentive to do so.