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A blockchain is a database. But a regular database doesn't really minimize trust, that's the point of public blockchains. The need of not relying on a centrali

A blockchain is a database. But a regular database doesn't really minimize trust, that's the point of public blockchains. The need of not relying on a centralized entity or third parties in the digital space does exist.

hannasanarion 6y ago
Minimizing trust is not a good thing. I don't understand where this obsession with it comes from. EVERY transaction requires trust. I sell you a pair of shoes, you pay in bitcoin, oops! the box is actually full of cat poop, too bad, sucks to be you, you can't get your bitcoin back, shouldn't have trusted me. Trust in the transaction system is not a dangerous component of commerce. Sure, you can trust Paypal to do the transaction for you (and also get benefits like chargebacks, disputes, and ID verification in return, not to mention the sub-second transaction speed), and what happens if they betray that trust? Well that's what governments are for, the two-ton hammer of the law will make sure you get your money back. Not to mention, blockchain is the least trustworthy transaction system of the modern age. Over a billion dollars in crypto has been stolen out of people's accounts via exchange hacks and smart contract exploits in the last ten years. This has never happened to any US bank since the introduction of FDIC in 1933.
- georgesC 6y ago
  Trust minimization doesn't equal no trust. Also the trust that a currency works as intended and that a transaction goes through isn't the same kind of trust than trusting a vendor, which is why there will probably always be other systems in place for that particular issue. Some people are interested in that because their trust has been abused by a centralized authority. And we're not only talking about the transaction systems, but also about currency. All in all it's all about the choice and preferences of individuals.
  - hannasanarion 6y ago
    When has the centralized authority, the banking system, ACH, Visa, Paypal, etc. ever "abused trust" by failing to record a transaction? And why is that very minimal trust in the ability of your money to get from one account to another worth risking all your money by putting it in an account with a single point of failure with no recourse in the event of a breach? In 88 years, no bank in the Untied States has ever lost a customer's money. To date, there are more bitcoin exchanges that have lost their users' money than there are that haven't.
    - Vecr 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point was a thing, trying to get banks to not "record transactions" in your words.
      - hannasanarion 6y ago
        Did you actually read any of that article? The allegations in Choke Point were that banks were approving transactions they shouldn't have, without doing enough investigation to check for fraud, not that they were failing to move money from one account to another, the "problem" that blockchain is supposed to "solve". In what way is blockchain supposed to prevent fraudulent transactions? It is impossible in blockchain to even check for fraud, because every transaction is automatically irrevocably approved by-design, no matter how fraudulent. edit: unless, what you meant to imply, is that the banks weren't supposed to approve those illegal transactions and so the government stepped in to punish them, and that bitcoin is good because it will never deny an illegal transaction and is therefore useful for committing crimes? well then thanks for admitting it, I guess.
        everydaysales 6y ago
        I think you are misinterpreting the placement of trust when you're positioning your responses. You're saying that there are advantages to a monetary system that relies on "objective" third parties to adjudicate disputes, combat fraud, and stifle illicit/illegal activity. You're not wrong that these are useful utilities. It's why I don't believe Bitcoin will ever replace them. It will certainly coexist though. The trust Bitcoin removes is the central banking component. We rely on governments who have shown wanton disregard for the value of their respective dollars by printing limitless supplies and dancing with the risk of hyperinflation. When we save money in a given currency, it's because we trust that currency as a store of value or we park it in a vehicle that returns value or at least staves off depreciation of value (savings accounts, bonds, stocks etc.) Bitcoin allows you to park your savings in a space that does not require you to trust any particular government's monetary policy. Maybe you're entirely comfortable with the USD or the Euro but there are folks in less stable countries with which Bitcoin is a godsend. What do you do if you're a billionaire in China and you said something bold online about an atrocity your government has just committed? You hear that you're about to be disappeared so you wish to defect to another country. How do you move your wealth? Can you move it via the existing banking digital network? No because the banking system is controlled by the government and that type of activity is red flagged and stopped. Can you move it all in cash or gold? Perhaps, but it's a huge undertaking logistically and very obviously shows your intentions. Bitcoin allows you to relocate the entirety of your wealth anywhere in the globe with literally just your brain power. You can memorize your seed and leave to where ever you want. That is insanely powerful freedom which is the result of removing the "trusted" third party through decentralization.

hannasanarion 6y ago

Minimizing trust is not a good thing. I don't understand where this obsession with it comes from. EVERY transaction requires trust. I sell you a pair of shoes, you pay in bitcoin, oops! the box is actually full of cat poop, too bad, sucks to be you, you can't get your bitcoin back, shouldn't have trusted me. Trust in the transaction system is not a dangerous component of commerce. Sure, you can trust Paypal to do the transaction for you (and also get benefits like chargebacks, disputes, and ID verification in return, not to mention the sub-second transaction speed), and what happens if they betray that trust? Well that's what governments are for, the two-ton hammer of the law will make sure you get your money back. Not to mention, blockchain is the least trustworthy transaction system of the modern age. Over a billion dollars in crypto has been stolen out of people's accounts via exchange hacks and smart contract exploits in the last ten years. This has never happened to any US bank since the introduction of FDIC in 1933.

georgesC 6y ago
Trust minimization doesn't equal no trust. Also the trust that a currency works as intended and that a transaction goes through isn't the same kind of trust than trusting a vendor, which is why there will probably always be other systems in place for that particular issue. Some people are interested in that because their trust has been abused by a centralized authority. And we're not only talking about the transaction systems, but also about currency. All in all it's all about the choice and preferences of individuals.
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  When has the centralized authority, the banking system, ACH, Visa, Paypal, etc. ever "abused trust" by failing to record a transaction? And why is that very minimal trust in the ability of your money to get from one account to another worth risking all your money by putting it in an account with a single point of failure with no recourse in the event of a breach? In 88 years, no bank in the Untied States has ever lost a customer's money. To date, there are more bitcoin exchanges that have lost their users' money than there are that haven't.
  - Vecr 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point was a thing, trying to get banks to not "record transactions" in your words.
    - hannasanarion 6y ago
      Did you actually read any of that article? The allegations in Choke Point were that banks were approving transactions they shouldn't have, without doing enough investigation to check for fraud, not that they were failing to move money from one account to another, the "problem" that blockchain is supposed to "solve". In what way is blockchain supposed to prevent fraudulent transactions? It is impossible in blockchain to even check for fraud, because every transaction is automatically irrevocably approved by-design, no matter how fraudulent. edit: unless, what you meant to imply, is that the banks weren't supposed to approve those illegal transactions and so the government stepped in to punish them, and that bitcoin is good because it will never deny an illegal transaction and is therefore useful for committing crimes? well then thanks for admitting it, I guess.
      - everydaysales 6y ago
        I think you are misinterpreting the placement of trust when you're positioning your responses. You're saying that there are advantages to a monetary system that relies on "objective" third parties to adjudicate disputes, combat fraud, and stifle illicit/illegal activity. You're not wrong that these are useful utilities. It's why I don't believe Bitcoin will ever replace them. It will certainly coexist though. The trust Bitcoin removes is the central banking component. We rely on governments who have shown wanton disregard for the value of their respective dollars by printing limitless supplies and dancing with the risk of hyperinflation. When we save money in a given currency, it's because we trust that currency as a store of value or we park it in a vehicle that returns value or at least staves off depreciation of value (savings accounts, bonds, stocks etc.) Bitcoin allows you to park your savings in a space that does not require you to trust any particular government's monetary policy. Maybe you're entirely comfortable with the USD or the Euro but there are folks in less stable countries with which Bitcoin is a godsend. What do you do if you're a billionaire in China and you said something bold online about an atrocity your government has just committed? You hear that you're about to be disappeared so you wish to defect to another country. How do you move your wealth? Can you move it via the existing banking digital network? No because the banking system is controlled by the government and that type of activity is red flagged and stopped. Can you move it all in cash or gold? Perhaps, but it's a huge undertaking logistically and very obviously shows your intentions. Bitcoin allows you to relocate the entirety of your wealth anywhere in the globe with literally just your brain power. You can memorize your seed and leave to where ever you want. That is insanely powerful freedom which is the result of removing the "trusted" third party through decentralization.