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I'm disagreeing with this thread. So I guess prepping for the down votes. > it trivializes all this historic pain to some inane game of word association I thi

by sago 6y ago

I'm disagreeing with this thread. So I guess prepping for the down votes. > it trivializes all this historic pain to some inane game of word association I think addressing one issue does not 'trivialise' everything else. It can be horribly overstated but changing small fry can help provide momentum to change something more significant. > It's complete bullshit, It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Does it not occur to you that it might improve our language to change that? Given changing a metaphor 'black' into a meaning 'block' doesn't seem to me a generally bad idea. I understand the logic of 'that's just what languages is.' But language changes when people use it differently. It seems to me very reasonable to say let's use this language a little bit less unfortunately. I'm not suggesting this is 100% the same but re: language change. I remember that time not too many years ago when people would argue that referring to a 'man' or 'him' at work was non-gendered. And those women complaining that we only talked about business men were just being unreasonable. I'm sure there are still places like that but I'm very glad that my co's & clients changed.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Fogest 6y ago
> It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Does it not occur to you that it might improve our language to change that? Honestly, lately I feel like the opposite is the case. Everywhere I go anywhere online all I see is white people being shit on. I see incredibly racist things being said about white people everywhere online and there are zero consequences for it. In fact they often get praised for it. So no, I think what you're saying is far from being true. The people who are looking at a word like "blacklist" and thinking it in a negative racial way are the ones that are the problem. They are the ones grasping at straws trying to find things to be offended by. It's a choice people make and it's only offensive because someone chooses to be offended by the word. You have to remember when being offended by words like this it means ignoring the context. It's just silly is what it is. Language policing is absolutely insane.
- sago 6y ago
  > all I see is white people being shit on I figured that would be the feel of the objection. Maybe I should be grateful as a white person that that's not the world I find myself in. Happy to pick my variable names. I can't help but feel that the antagonism here is very similar to the antagonism I mentioned about Gendered language. The anger seemed mostly caused by being surprised by being asked to think about something.
  - Fogest 6y ago
    The problem is that you're not thinking about the context of the word and instead are using it in a different context to be offended by it. I'd argue that you are the one who needs to think about it a bit more instead of blindly calling others names and trying to police the grammatically correct words someone uses. Just because you think and associate something with a negative racial implication when you see a word doesn't mean others are. I personally am able to look at a word and understand the context surrounding the word. I'm able to think about that word and know that calling my git branch a "master" doesn't mean that I am a slave driver and or that I agree with it. I am able to think on my own.
    - sago 6y ago
      > The problem is that you're not thinking about the context of the word and instead are using it in a different context to be offended by it. Please be a bit more careful. Please don't assume you know what or how much I'm thinking. I think the situation isn't as binary as you seem to be presenting it. The context of the word is a metaphor. The metaphor is commonly used for 'good versus bad'. This being a common metaphor in western language might not be helpful to some people. It's not difficult to be more explicit or to use a different metaphor. > you are the one who needs to think about ... I am able to think on my own. :) You know the classic idea: "I know I'm right, therefore you are either less intelligent or haven't thought hard enough!"? You know how easy that is to think and why our brain gets us to think that way?
      - Fogest 6y ago
nyolfen 6y ago
it is purely an arbitrary exercise in power, making others submit to show them that they must. it is obviously trivial, obviously contentious, and changes literally nothing about the material relations between groups. the entire point is to force you to do something stupid to show you that you don't have a choice.
a1369209993 6y ago
> > It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. > it is not just not intentionally racist -- there is no way any normal person would construe the term 'blacklist' as racist. it is as logically coherent as banning 'black pudding' for racism. it is purely an arbitrary exercise in power, making others submit to show them that they must. Exactly this. Addressing one issue does not trivialise everything else. 'Addressing' something that isn't actually one of the issues at all[0] trivialises everything else. 0: And there are plenty of actual issues to pick from! Edit: HN seems to be bugging out, so reattaching reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26219976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26219976 here. Edit again: Parent seems to be back at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26220021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26220021 - id change on edit? shrug.
- sago 6y ago
  > 'blacklist'.. is as logically coherent ... 'black pudding' Really? Regardless of what you think about racism, I don't want to be funny isn't it obvious that one is a metaphor and one isn't? This is not a racism question, but would you think 'Concrete' in 'ConcreteList' is functionally the same as in 'Concrete road'? I can't imagine how a blacklist is the colour black. Blood sausage is. Except the Irish version I know. Which is called white pudding.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    They said banning one was "as logically coherent as" banning the other, not that one was functionally the same as the other. (But since we're on this tangent, the only black pudding I've encountered was (admittedly dark) red, not black. Also revolting, but supposedly that's normal?)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Bayart 6y ago
>But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Does it not occur to you that it might improve our language to change that? It's not just a language thing. It's an extremely deeply rooted symbolic system. You can't arbitrarily change it, and even if you did... what improvement does shifting the symbols around yield ? That's just increasing the noise to signal ratio. Even then, isn't the real problematic part assigning elementary colours to skin tones ? Can't you just try to change that instead of contorting the deepest part of a culture on a Procustean bed ?
ttt0 6y ago
> It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? No. That's how it's always been in European culture and it doesn't have much to do with race. It's probably true of many other cultures as well, although I can't say for sure.
- sago 6y ago
  I think there are two slightly different approaches. Your point is completely correct. As is the other comment here at about night and day. The lists are frequent. And not unique to European cultures. But it's also not reasonable to say that in our particular culture, meaning as a political and social context. Because I'm trying to make a bigger point than just race, I could imagine reading a similar things to what you're writing back in the late-C20 saying that 'Man' has been nongendered for centuries and in many cultures and in all kinds of language. Hi wouldn't disagree. But then the next step: so women shouldn't have been worried about companies wanting to hire businessmen. That just doesn't seem ok. So I definitely think that 'Black equals bad, white equals good' Has all kinds of historical significance, non racist links, and would not have been considered weird until very recently. But in our context I'm not offended that it would be something we find alternatives for.
psyc 6y ago
Peach-pink people aren’t white, and brown people are not black in the first place. Why do self-styled anti-racists not seem to have any problem with that? Why not start there instead of changing the deep symbolism of the colors black and white?
- lizardmancan 6y ago
  the symbolism is the problem and you need to account for it if you desire to cater to other ppls perception. You can also not care and just put it the way you think describes something. the joke if you like is in the intend. If you chose not to correct your language it becomes intentional. i offer no solutions
EGreg 6y ago
It may not be intentionally racist, but that doesn’t make it not racist. Consider why white moves first in chess. They literally did this two years ago: https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-and-giri-campaign-for-racial-equality https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-and-giri-campaign-for-... Anyway, in many religions the light illuminates things while darkness is the absence of light. So it’s not just about people’s race...
- sobriquet9 6y ago
  In go (baduk) black moves first. Does it make go not racist? On the other hand, white needs 6.5 less points to win (komi). Does it make go racist?
  - f430 6y ago
    Following Egreg's logic, yes but probably it's only racist when lighter colors have priority over darker colors, which is absolutely insane.
- redisman 6y ago
  Also the night is black and dangerous. The daytime is bright and safe. These are ancient concepts and postmodernism isn’t some absolute truth
  - f430 6y ago
    just like master bedroom, master branch, slave drive is racist to some people.
johncena33 6y ago
> I think addressing one issue does not 'trivialise' everything else. Yes, it does. On my Twitter I have "racism" and "race" including many other trendy SJW keywords blocked. The reason is I simply don't have the time and energy to tend to every single accusation of racism or whatever-isms is out there. And most these accusations have nothing to do with racism. It's just some bully has found a new target to harass.
onethought 6y ago
> But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? The inverse solution to this stop calling people with darker skin "Black"? I kind of agree with what you're saying, but also it isn't true: - Blacktie - Black friday - Blacktop - Back in black - Orange is the new black - Men in black All of those use black in a positive connotation. In my head black/white list has always been a metaphor for light/no light. As in black list can't see, white list can. In asian Culture white is often associated with the colour of ghosts / the dead... So it'd get awkward if we keep modifying language to suit cultural references especially as English is a global language and while slavery was(is) a global problem it persists only really in the US as a current popular cultural issue. In replying to you I've convinced myself at least the solution here can't possibly be to change all of the possible references of black to something else... it verges on new speak.
mr_toad 6y ago
> But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Black is associated with the night and darkness and death in many cultures. Fear of the darkness is common to all humans.

by sago 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Fogest 6y ago

> It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Does it not occur to you that it might improve our language to change that? Honestly, lately I feel like the opposite is the case. Everywhere I go anywhere online all I see is white people being shit on. I see incredibly racist things being said about white people everywhere online and there are zero consequences for it. In fact they often get praised for it. So no, I think what you're saying is far from being true. The people who are looking at a word like "blacklist" and thinking it in a negative racial way are the ones that are the problem. They are the ones grasping at straws trying to find things to be offended by. It's a choice people make and it's only offensive because someone chooses to be offended by the word. You have to remember when being offended by words like this it means ignoring the context. It's just silly is what it is. Language policing is absolutely insane.

sago 6y ago
> all I see is white people being shit on I figured that would be the feel of the objection. Maybe I should be grateful as a white person that that's not the world I find myself in. Happy to pick my variable names. I can't help but feel that the antagonism here is very similar to the antagonism I mentioned about Gendered language. The anger seemed mostly caused by being surprised by being asked to think about something.
- Fogest 6y ago
  The problem is that you're not thinking about the context of the word and instead are using it in a different context to be offended by it. I'd argue that you are the one who needs to think about it a bit more instead of blindly calling others names and trying to police the grammatically correct words someone uses. Just because you think and associate something with a negative racial implication when you see a word doesn't mean others are. I personally am able to look at a word and understand the context surrounding the word. I'm able to think about that word and know that calling my git branch a "master" doesn't mean that I am a slave driver and or that I agree with it. I am able to think on my own.
  - sago 6y ago
    > The problem is that you're not thinking about the context of the word and instead are using it in a different context to be offended by it. Please be a bit more careful. Please don't assume you know what or how much I'm thinking. I think the situation isn't as binary as you seem to be presenting it. The context of the word is a metaphor. The metaphor is commonly used for 'good versus bad'. This being a common metaphor in western language might not be helpful to some people. It's not difficult to be more explicit or to use a different metaphor. > you are the one who needs to think about ... I am able to think on my own. :) You know the classic idea: "I know I'm right, therefore you are either less intelligent or haven't thought hard enough!"? You know how easy that is to think and why our brain gets us to think that way?
    - Fogest 6y ago

nyolfen 6y ago

it is purely an arbitrary exercise in power, making others submit to show them that they must. it is obviously trivial, obviously contentious, and changes literally nothing about the material relations between groups. the entire point is to force you to do something stupid to show you that you don't have a choice.

a1369209993 6y ago

> > It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. > it is not just not intentionally racist -- there is no way any normal person would construe the term 'blacklist' as racist. it is as logically coherent as banning 'black pudding' for racism. it is purely an arbitrary exercise in power, making others submit to show them that they must. Exactly this. Addressing one issue does not trivialise everything else. 'Addressing' something that isn't actually one of the issues at all[0] trivialises everything else. 0: And there are plenty of actual issues to pick from! Edit: HN seems to be bugging out, so reattaching reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26219976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26219976 here. Edit again: Parent seems to be back at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26220021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26220021 - id change on edit? shrug.

sago 6y ago
> 'blacklist'.. is as logically coherent ... 'black pudding' Really? Regardless of what you think about racism, I don't want to be funny isn't it obvious that one is a metaphor and one isn't? This is not a racism question, but would you think 'Concrete' in 'ConcreteList' is functionally the same as in 'Concrete road'? I can't imagine how a blacklist is the colour black. Blood sausage is. Except the Irish version I know. Which is called white pudding.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  They said banning one was "as logically coherent as" banning the other, not that one was functionally the same as the other. (But since we're on this tangent, the only black pudding I've encountered was (admittedly dark) red, not black. Also revolting, but supposedly that's normal?)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Bayart 6y ago

>But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Does it not occur to you that it might improve our language to change that? It's not just a language thing. It's an extremely deeply rooted symbolic system. You can't arbitrarily change it, and even if you did... what improvement does shifting the symbols around yield ? That's just increasing the noise to signal ratio. Even then, isn't the real problematic part assigning elementary colours to skin tones ? Can't you just try to change that instead of contorting the deepest part of a culture on a Procustean bed ?

ttt0 6y ago

> It is obviously associating racism with something not intentionally racist. But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? No. That's how it's always been in European culture and it doesn't have much to do with race. It's probably true of many other cultures as well, although I can't say for sure.

sago 6y ago
I think there are two slightly different approaches. Your point is completely correct. As is the other comment here at about night and day. The lists are frequent. And not unique to European cultures. But it's also not reasonable to say that in our particular culture, meaning as a political and social context. Because I'm trying to make a bigger point than just race, I could imagine reading a similar things to what you're writing back in the late-C20 saying that 'Man' has been nongendered for centuries and in many cultures and in all kinds of language. Hi wouldn't disagree. But then the next step: so women shouldn't have been worried about companies wanting to hire businessmen. That just doesn't seem ok. So I definitely think that 'Black equals bad, white equals good' Has all kinds of historical significance, non racist links, and would not have been considered weird until very recently. But in our context I'm not offended that it would be something we find alternatives for.

psyc 6y ago

Peach-pink people aren’t white, and brown people are not black in the first place. Why do self-styled anti-racists not seem to have any problem with that? Why not start there instead of changing the deep symbolism of the colors black and white?

lizardmancan 6y ago
the symbolism is the problem and you need to account for it if you desire to cater to other ppls perception. You can also not care and just put it the way you think describes something. the joke if you like is in the intend. If you chose not to correct your language it becomes intentional. i offer no solutions

EGreg 6y ago

It may not be intentionally racist, but that doesn’t make it not racist. Consider why white moves first in chess. They literally did this two years ago: https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-and-giri-campaign-for-racial-equality https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-and-giri-campaign-for-... Anyway, in many religions the light illuminates things while darkness is the absence of light. So it’s not just about people’s race...

sobriquet9 6y ago
In go (baduk) black moves first. Does it make go not racist? On the other hand, white needs 6.5 less points to win (komi). Does it make go racist?
- f430 6y ago
  Following Egreg's logic, yes but probably it's only racist when lighter colors have priority over darker colors, which is absolutely insane.
redisman 6y ago
Also the night is black and dangerous. The daytime is bright and safe. These are ancient concepts and postmodernism isn’t some absolute truth
- f430 6y ago
  just like master bedroom, master branch, slave drive is racist to some people.

johncena33 6y ago

> I think addressing one issue does not 'trivialise' everything else. Yes, it does. On my Twitter I have "racism" and "race" including many other trendy SJW keywords blocked. The reason is I simply don't have the time and energy to tend to every single accusation of racism or whatever-isms is out there. And most these accusations have nothing to do with racism. It's just some bully has found a new target to harass.

onethought 6y ago

> But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? The inverse solution to this stop calling people with darker skin "Black"? I kind of agree with what you're saying, but also it isn't true: - Blacktie - Black friday - Blacktop - Back in black - Orange is the new black - Men in black All of those use black in a positive connotation. In my head black/white list has always been a metaphor for light/no light. As in black list can't see, white list can. In asian Culture white is often associated with the colour of ghosts / the dead... So it'd get awkward if we keep modifying language to suit cultural references especially as English is a global language and while slavery was(is) a global problem it persists only really in the US as a current popular cultural issue. In replying to you I've convinced myself at least the solution here can't possibly be to change all of the possible references of black to something else... it verges on new speak.

mr_toad 6y ago

> But does it not strike to you at all problematic, at the moment, that 'black' is a synonym of 'bad' and 'white' of 'good'? Black is associated with the night and darkness and death in many cultures. Fear of the darkness is common to all humans.