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Germany's an ally. We don't try to beat them up over hitler, and it wouldn't make sense if we did. For basically the same reasons, so good choice of analogy I

Germany's an ally. We don't try to beat them up over hitler, and it wouldn't make sense if we did. For basically the same reasons, so good choice of analogy I guess.

smsm42 6y ago
Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?
- free_rms 6y ago
  Do you even know who Deng Xiaopeng is? Changing systems without a massive, disruptive loss of life is actually a huge accomplishment. No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. It had the side effect of not changing names of various things.
  - smsm42 6y ago
    Yes, I know who he is, but he didn't change as much as you try to represent - China is still under the full control of the CCP. It's like Martin Bormann would take control over NDSAP, denounce some mistakes made by overzealous comrades, announced some modest reforms, and proclaim the new era - while NSDAP is still in control of Germany. > No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. China didn't either. Unless by "communism" you mean whatever Marx meant as the ultimate point of history - classless moneyless post-scarcity society with no property and no suffering and basically paradise. Obviously nobody transitioned out of it at all because it never existed. If you mean actual society built in China, it didn't transition out of anything - it allowed some modest economic freedoms, under the tight control of the CCP of course, but the idea of state-controlled centralized economy which is subject to single-party rule and complete absence of the idea of any individual rights is firmly in place.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      This thread started under the topic "believe it or not, Chinese people are actually pretty happy with their government given the record over the last few decades". Can you think about what would be persuasive to such a person? They're not American, didn't grow up on your information diet, and really don't give a shit about what's "communist" or not. Their economy is state-controlled to the tune of Norway, or a little less so. Who cares. They are all doing way better than a generation or 2 ago, and here in America, we are comparatively struggling. They see this. Why should they want our system instead?
      - smsm42 6y ago
        I've lived in a totalitarian state, and you can't really observe how happy the people are when their rights and means of expression are constantly suppressed. Even if some people were happy with the arrangement, I'm pretty sure people who are imprisoned, stripped of basic rights and sometimes just disassembled for spare organs aren't that happy. > didn't grow up on your information diet You don't know the first thing about my information diet. > and really don't give a shit about what's "communist" or not Hong-Kong protests showed pretty clearly they do, if they are not forcefully and violently suppressed. Of course, it's kinda hard to know if they give a shit if one gets shot for publicly admitting you give a shit. > Their economy is state-controlled to the tune of Norway, or a little less so. That's a lie. > They are all doing way better than a generation or 2 ago Generation or 2 ago Communists were literally destroying the country with Cultural Revolution, trying to purge it from any shred of old tradition and make all educated people forget all they know and go dig dirt in the fields. Pretending like stopping this and the resulting relative improvement of conditions is some great achievement of the Communists is the peak arrogance - what's the Chinese word for hutzpah? It's like if I beat you up for years and then stopped for a while and your health improved a bit and I would go around and brag that I am a great doctor - because I "cured" you from the sickness I was causing to you by beating you up!
        free_rms 6y ago
        > You don't know the first thing about my information diet. You've given some pretty strong hints about it in fact, and tripled down in this comment. I'll go out on a very specific limb, tell me I'm wrong: Moved to the US from an eastern european country at a young age, perhaps exactly 1989, parents talk a lot about how bad it was? And "state-controlled to the tune of Norway" is approximately accurate, thank you. You know they have gigantic private corporations there? Alongside the state-owned oil behemoths, Norway makes for a particularly nice comparison.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Americans killed 99% of its indigenous population, alright robbed or bought under heavy pressure a large portion of its territory, it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world, and barely anybody mentions it now. America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old.
  - smsm42 6y ago
    > it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world, By which you mean "if I were sole judge of everything happening in the world" - but you aren't, and it isn't. > and barely anybody mentions it now. You just mentioned it. And your comrades mention it all the time, both in the US and abroad. Scarcely any discussion involving anything political - not even having anything to do with the US, as for example this one - can pass without mentioning it. I leave it for you to judge whether "barely anybody" adequately describes yourself and your comrades. > America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old. Yes, and? 5000 years, and it culminated in the Cultural Revolution, where educated people were hunted down, free thought was suppressed, cultural artifacts and knowledge were forcefully destroyed, all traditional values were discarded, tens of millions of people were persecuted and many of them murdered, and country's development has been set back by decades at least. I'm sure there are a lot of things over China's 5000 years of history which one can be justifiably proud about, but these years should be source of shame, not pride. And yet, the same organization that perpetrated it still rules China, and under essentially the same ideology, only slightly tweaked.
    - cambalache 6y ago
      > but you aren't, and it isn't. Any decent person with an ounce of humanity knows it was a barbaric crime. Then you have your Bush, Trump and I suppose you for your enthusiastic support. > describes yourself and your comrades. It is the big bad commies, I tell ya, but we will make america great again. > And yet, the same organization that perpetrated it still rules China, and under essentially the same ideology, only slightly tweaked. The same you dont see the irony on criticizing China (btw the Cultural Revolution and the BLF were criminal things) and yet get your panties in a twist because a COMMIE dares to criticize the best country in the world(TM) says everything about your mental state. Bye kiddo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EMx7Y16Vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EMx7Y16Vo Who am I a kidding I'm 99% sure that you are white, male, over 40, socially inept and "libertatian". A walking,talking stereotype.

Germany's an ally. We don't try to beat them up over hitler, and it wouldn't make sense if we did. For basically the same reasons, so good choice of analogy I guess.

smsm42 6y ago

Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?

free_rms 6y ago
Do you even know who Deng Xiaopeng is? Changing systems without a massive, disruptive loss of life is actually a huge accomplishment. No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. It had the side effect of not changing names of various things.
- smsm42 6y ago
  Yes, I know who he is, but he didn't change as much as you try to represent - China is still under the full control of the CCP. It's like Martin Bormann would take control over NDSAP, denounce some mistakes made by overzealous comrades, announced some modest reforms, and proclaim the new era - while NSDAP is still in control of Germany. > No other nation has transitioned out of communism smoothly. China didn't either. Unless by "communism" you mean whatever Marx meant as the ultimate point of history - classless moneyless post-scarcity society with no property and no suffering and basically paradise. Obviously nobody transitioned out of it at all because it never existed. If you mean actual society built in China, it didn't transition out of anything - it allowed some modest economic freedoms, under the tight control of the CCP of course, but the idea of state-controlled centralized economy which is subject to single-party rule and complete absence of the idea of any individual rights is firmly in place.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    This thread started under the topic "believe it or not, Chinese people are actually pretty happy with their government given the record over the last few decades". Can you think about what would be persuasive to such a person? They're not American, didn't grow up on your information diet, and really don't give a shit about what's "communist" or not. Their economy is state-controlled to the tune of Norway, or a little less so. Who cares. They are all doing way better than a generation or 2 ago, and here in America, we are comparatively struggling. They see this. Why should they want our system instead?
    - smsm42 6y ago
      I've lived in a totalitarian state, and you can't really observe how happy the people are when their rights and means of expression are constantly suppressed. Even if some people were happy with the arrangement, I'm pretty sure people who are imprisoned, stripped of basic rights and sometimes just disassembled for spare organs aren't that happy. > didn't grow up on your information diet You don't know the first thing about my information diet. > and really don't give a shit about what's "communist" or not Hong-Kong protests showed pretty clearly they do, if they are not forcefully and violently suppressed. Of course, it's kinda hard to know if they give a shit if one gets shot for publicly admitting you give a shit. > Their economy is state-controlled to the tune of Norway, or a little less so. That's a lie. > They are all doing way better than a generation or 2 ago Generation or 2 ago Communists were literally destroying the country with Cultural Revolution, trying to purge it from any shred of old tradition and make all educated people forget all they know and go dig dirt in the fields. Pretending like stopping this and the resulting relative improvement of conditions is some great achievement of the Communists is the peak arrogance - what's the Chinese word for hutzpah? It's like if I beat you up for years and then stopped for a while and your health improved a bit and I would go around and brag that I am a great doctor - because I "cured" you from the sickness I was causing to you by beating you up!
      - free_rms 6y ago
        > You don't know the first thing about my information diet. You've given some pretty strong hints about it in fact, and tripled down in this comment. I'll go out on a very specific limb, tell me I'm wrong: Moved to the US from an eastern european country at a young age, perhaps exactly 1989, parents talk a lot about how bad it was? And "state-controlled to the tune of Norway" is approximately accurate, thank you. You know they have gigantic private corporations there? Alongside the state-owned oil behemoths, Norway makes for a particularly nice comparison.
cambalache 6y ago
Americans killed 99% of its indigenous population, alright robbed or bought under heavy pressure a large portion of its territory, it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world, and barely anybody mentions it now. America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old.
- smsm42 6y ago
  > it used 2 nuclear weapons which would be considered a crime against humanity if there were justice in the world, By which you mean "if I were sole judge of everything happening in the world" - but you aren't, and it isn't. > and barely anybody mentions it now. You just mentioned it. And your comrades mention it all the time, both in the US and abroad. Scarcely any discussion involving anything political - not even having anything to do with the US, as for example this one - can pass without mentioning it. I leave it for you to judge whether "barely anybody" adequately describes yourself and your comrades. > America is not yet 250 years old. China is 5000 years old. Yes, and? 5000 years, and it culminated in the Cultural Revolution, where educated people were hunted down, free thought was suppressed, cultural artifacts and knowledge were forcefully destroyed, all traditional values were discarded, tens of millions of people were persecuted and many of them murdered, and country's development has been set back by decades at least. I'm sure there are a lot of things over China's 5000 years of history which one can be justifiably proud about, but these years should be source of shame, not pride. And yet, the same organization that perpetrated it still rules China, and under essentially the same ideology, only slightly tweaked.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    > but you aren't, and it isn't. Any decent person with an ounce of humanity knows it was a barbaric crime. Then you have your Bush, Trump and I suppose you for your enthusiastic support. > describes yourself and your comrades. It is the big bad commies, I tell ya, but we will make america great again. > And yet, the same organization that perpetrated it still rules China, and under essentially the same ideology, only slightly tweaked. The same you dont see the irony on criticizing China (btw the Cultural Revolution and the BLF were criminal things) and yet get your panties in a twist because a COMMIE dares to criticize the best country in the world(TM) says everything about your mental state. Bye kiddo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EMx7Y16Vo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8EMx7Y16Vo Who am I a kidding I'm 99% sure that you are white, male, over 40, socially inept and "libertatian". A walking,talking stereotype.