6 ms·

How to do deliberate practice

87 points by cwb 15y ago

mattgreenrocks 15y ago
It's interesting that each of those practice scenarios he recommends are fairly dangerous from the point of view of the ego. I would be very apprehensive about learning the multiplication tables in a public fashion.
- wccrawford 15y ago
  All education works best when customized for the learner. In your case (and mine!) you prefer to learn without the possibility that someone will ridicule you for making a mistake. Many people actually learn faster/better when the threat of ridicule is on the table, though. Assigning homework actually has the same effect as the in-class quiz, since it forces each student to reach in the same way and would be another example.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    Many people actually learn faster/better when the threat of ridicule is on the table, though. Really? How many?
    - Wilduck 15y ago
      I don't know about how many, but I certainly do.
- cwb 15y ago
  The teacher would need to try and make the students understand that it is all right -- scrap that, necessary -- to fail when you learn. Learning to perform surgery is not the same thing as performing it. Out of curiosity, how do you think it would affect your motivation to practice in private if you knew you would be tested in public?
  - GHFigs 15y ago
    The irony is that most students had to be taught to abhor such failure in the first place.
wccrawford 15y ago
I actually disagree with the 'play perfectly' example. It emphasizes the beginning of the practice and de-emphasizes the end. If playing the whole thing 20 times is boring, imagine how boring it is to play the beginning over and over until you get the whole thing perfect 5 times? Guitar hero has a mode that lets you practice pieces of a song. You can practice each segment to perfection, then play the whole song. This targeted practice should be a lot more effective and still obey the idea of what he's saying. I once had a teacher that took offense at the statement "Practice makes perfect." They always changed it to be "Perfect practice makes perfect." I think it's more in line with the article's meaning, too. As another anecdote, I've been studying Japanese lately. Never before have I been so acutely aware that the only way to improve a skill is to use it. Reading English for me is -very- easy and enjoyable. Japanese started out extremely difficult, time-consuming and painful. A few years later, and I'm much better at it... But my listening skill (for Japanese) has hardly changed at all. Why? Because I almost never use it.
- crb 15y ago
  I had a teacher in intermediate school (age 11/12) whose variant was "practice makes /permanent/". If you practice something wrong a certain number of times - in his example, 7 - you're learning it wrong, and your muscle memory will retain the 'wrong' method.
- cwb 15y ago
  He does say "passage" to refer to a small part of a composition, not the whole thing. Your thinking is spot on though -- the length of the segment needs to be considered.
  - dbalatero 15y ago
    You need to adjust the segment length to reflect your current success/failure. Either that, or you need to slow down. I'm viewing this from a musician's perspective, but those are the two basic tools in my practice toolbox: 1) slow down until comfortable 2) isolate the thing that is giving you the actual trouble, and fix that before attempting the bigger challenge The thing to avoid is practicing mistakes. These two basic principles attempt to minimize that.
sayemm 15y ago
Here's a good piece by Dr. K. Anders Ericsson on Expert Performance and Deliberate Practice, he's the guy who's pretty much behind all this research on deliberate practice and the making of outliers - http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.exp.perf.html http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.exp.perf.ht...
- nerfhammer 15y ago
  Here's a whole book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591842948/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=blogrevol-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=1591842948 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591842948/ref=as_li_tf_tl?...
  - spottiness 15y ago
    I read this book and although I enjoyed it and found it interesting, I think that the author undervalues the importance of innate talent. According to the author, almost everybody can become great at anything given the right motivation, hard-work, and coaching. I find this principle wrong, based on what I've heard experienced coaches say, and my own experience through 19 years of schooling. In other words, a lot of (non-scientific) evidence suggests that great performers have above average innate abilities in what they do. These abilities are common in the population but in no way general to most people. So, those born with the "extra" in a particular field, paired with great couches, family support, and an emotional fabric that keeps them focused for a long time, will have the chance of making it to the highest. (I have a friend that thinks otherwise and I tell him: "Remember when you were in first grade, try to remember your classmates, what percentage of them could have become Nobel Prize winners in Physics given the right nurturing conditions?". According to the author of this book, almost all of them)
    - Isamu 15y ago
      > I think that the author undervalues the importance of innate talent. Several recent books are doing that. But I think the common claim is that people who have become great have done so through training, and the effect of innate talent seems to be secondary at best. They don't claim the opposite - that with the right training anyone will be great. Only that greatness is primarily due to the right training. It implies that a person of normal natural abilities has a shot at becoming world-class, but it's not a guarantee.
zarastralia 15y ago
Something I recently discovered: the secret to deliberate practice is to consciously enjoy it by entering more deeply into the experience. This approach is the opposite of enforced drill. Thus, when you are bored and enjoyment starts to flag, you stop immediately (nothing is lost by this). Enjoyment both motivates further practice and makes what you are trying to learn more memorable. For example, if you are memorising a phrase in a foreign language, you revel in the fruity sounds you are making and in the delicate dance your lips and teeth and tongue are performing; you marvel at the pattern of connections between the meaning of the phrase and other ideas you have learnt. It goes against the grain because one of the legacies of schooling is the assumption that learning is difficult and painful. (Paradoxically, by continuing to believe this one makes it so.)
- Travis 15y ago
  Reminds me of the koan, "Wash the dishes when you are washing the dishes."
  - zarastralia 15y ago
    In my case, 'flip the cutlery before placing it in the dishwasher.' But yeah. The problem isn't that learning is unenjoyable, but that we don't enjoy it enough.
- bostonvaulter2 15y ago
  This sounds like a great idea! I'll try to in incorporate it into my practice. I can also draw many interesting parallels between this and mindfullness.
te_platt 15y ago
For me the most important part deliberate practice losing all embarrassment about making mistakes. Practice should give a chance stumble at the edge of your ability and take chances you wouldn't in a live performance. For more detail I highly recommend "The Perfect Wrong Note" by William Westney.
ChuckFrank 15y ago
Part of what these suggestion contains are the basis for the emerging field of game learning. While the wiki is surprisingly weak on the matter -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_based_learning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_based_learning -- the idea is that structured conditions of gaming/sports success can be applied to teaching and knowledge acquisition. Some of these ideas include: Coached practicing / Competitive performance evaluation / Transparent Scores / Winning opportunities / Final Awards.
raju 15y ago
I have been thinking about this for a while now, and I am not quite sure how to apply it, to say learning a new (programming) language (I have been playing with Clojure for a while now but am nowhere near productive in it). I guess the part that confuses me is the first step - "R stands for Reaching/Repeating" - How exactly would you apply this to learning a new language, framework, algorithm? Folks here on HN - Any words of advice?
- bostonvaulter2 15y ago
  Similar to what teach said you could apply some of it by trying to code without using the docs as much as possible. But I agree that it's hard to "practice" programming, versus "doing" programming. So much of programming is working with large complex systems that it isn't that amenable to small drilling techniques.
- teach 15y ago
  When I wanted to get better at Python, I started working through the problems at Project Euler[0], because they were novel and interesting. Also, many of them needed non-trivial optimizations to produce an answer in a reasonable amount of time. After about 20-25 problems, I found myself reaching for the Python docs way less. [0] http://projecteuler.net/ http://projecteuler.net/

87 points by cwb 15y ago

It's interesting that each of those practice scenarios he recommends are fairly dangerous from the point of view of the ego. I would be very apprehensive about learning the multiplication tables in a public fashion.

wccrawford 15y ago
All education works best when customized for the learner. In your case (and mine!) you prefer to learn without the possibility that someone will ridicule you for making a mistake. Many people actually learn faster/better when the threat of ridicule is on the table, though. Assigning homework actually has the same effect as the in-class quiz, since it forces each student to reach in the same way and would be another example.
- rhizome 15y ago
  Many people actually learn faster/better when the threat of ridicule is on the table, though. Really? How many?
  - Wilduck 15y ago
    I don't know about how many, but I certainly do.
cwb 15y ago
The teacher would need to try and make the students understand that it is all right -- scrap that, necessary -- to fail when you learn. Learning to perform surgery is not the same thing as performing it. Out of curiosity, how do you think it would affect your motivation to practice in private if you knew you would be tested in public?
- GHFigs 15y ago
  The irony is that most students had to be taught to abhor such failure in the first place.

wccrawford 15y ago

I actually disagree with the 'play perfectly' example. It emphasizes the beginning of the practice and de-emphasizes the end. If playing the whole thing 20 times is boring, imagine how boring it is to play the beginning over and over until you get the whole thing perfect 5 times? Guitar hero has a mode that lets you practice pieces of a song. You can practice each segment to perfection, then play the whole song. This targeted practice should be a lot more effective and still obey the idea of what he's saying. I once had a teacher that took offense at the statement "Practice makes perfect." They always changed it to be "Perfect practice makes perfect." I think it's more in line with the article's meaning, too. As another anecdote, I've been studying Japanese lately. Never before have I been so acutely aware that the only way to improve a skill is to use it. Reading English for me is -very- easy and enjoyable. Japanese started out extremely difficult, time-consuming and painful. A few years later, and I'm much better at it... But my listening skill (for Japanese) has hardly changed at all. Why? Because I almost never use it.

crb 15y ago
I had a teacher in intermediate school (age 11/12) whose variant was "practice makes /permanent/". If you practice something wrong a certain number of times - in his example, 7 - you're learning it wrong, and your muscle memory will retain the 'wrong' method.
cwb 15y ago
He does say "passage" to refer to a small part of a composition, not the whole thing. Your thinking is spot on though -- the length of the segment needs to be considered.
- dbalatero 15y ago
  You need to adjust the segment length to reflect your current success/failure. Either that, or you need to slow down. I'm viewing this from a musician's perspective, but those are the two basic tools in my practice toolbox: 1) slow down until comfortable 2) isolate the thing that is giving you the actual trouble, and fix that before attempting the bigger challenge The thing to avoid is practicing mistakes. These two basic principles attempt to minimize that.

sayemm 15y ago

Here's a good piece by Dr. K. Anders Ericsson on Expert Performance and Deliberate Practice, he's the guy who's pretty much behind all this research on deliberate practice and the making of outliers - http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.exp.perf.html http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.exp.perf.ht...

nerfhammer 15y ago
Here's a whole book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591842948/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=blogrevol-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=1591842948 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591842948/ref=as_li_tf_tl?...
- spottiness 15y ago
  I read this book and although I enjoyed it and found it interesting, I think that the author undervalues the importance of innate talent. According to the author, almost everybody can become great at anything given the right motivation, hard-work, and coaching. I find this principle wrong, based on what I've heard experienced coaches say, and my own experience through 19 years of schooling. In other words, a lot of (non-scientific) evidence suggests that great performers have above average innate abilities in what they do. These abilities are common in the population but in no way general to most people. So, those born with the "extra" in a particular field, paired with great couches, family support, and an emotional fabric that keeps them focused for a long time, will have the chance of making it to the highest. (I have a friend that thinks otherwise and I tell him: "Remember when you were in first grade, try to remember your classmates, what percentage of them could have become Nobel Prize winners in Physics given the right nurturing conditions?". According to the author of this book, almost all of them)
  - Isamu 15y ago
    > I think that the author undervalues the importance of innate talent. Several recent books are doing that. But I think the common claim is that people who have become great have done so through training, and the effect of innate talent seems to be secondary at best. They don't claim the opposite - that with the right training anyone will be great. Only that greatness is primarily due to the right training. It implies that a person of normal natural abilities has a shot at becoming world-class, but it's not a guarantee.

zarastralia 15y ago

Something I recently discovered: the secret to deliberate practice is to consciously enjoy it by entering more deeply into the experience. This approach is the opposite of enforced drill. Thus, when you are bored and enjoyment starts to flag, you stop immediately (nothing is lost by this). Enjoyment both motivates further practice and makes what you are trying to learn more memorable. For example, if you are memorising a phrase in a foreign language, you revel in the fruity sounds you are making and in the delicate dance your lips and teeth and tongue are performing; you marvel at the pattern of connections between the meaning of the phrase and other ideas you have learnt. It goes against the grain because one of the legacies of schooling is the assumption that learning is difficult and painful. (Paradoxically, by continuing to believe this one makes it so.)

Travis 15y ago
Reminds me of the koan, "Wash the dishes when you are washing the dishes."
- zarastralia 15y ago
  In my case, 'flip the cutlery before placing it in the dishwasher.' But yeah. The problem isn't that learning is unenjoyable, but that we don't enjoy it enough.
bostonvaulter2 15y ago
This sounds like a great idea! I'll try to in incorporate it into my practice. I can also draw many interesting parallels between this and mindfullness.

te_platt 15y ago

For me the most important part deliberate practice losing all embarrassment about making mistakes. Practice should give a chance stumble at the edge of your ability and take chances you wouldn't in a live performance. For more detail I highly recommend "The Perfect Wrong Note" by William Westney.

ChuckFrank 15y ago

Part of what these suggestion contains are the basis for the emerging field of game learning. While the wiki is surprisingly weak on the matter -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_based_learning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_based_learning -- the idea is that structured conditions of gaming/sports success can be applied to teaching and knowledge acquisition. Some of these ideas include: Coached practicing / Competitive performance evaluation / Transparent Scores / Winning opportunities / Final Awards.

raju 15y ago

I have been thinking about this for a while now, and I am not quite sure how to apply it, to say learning a new (programming) language (I have been playing with Clojure for a while now but am nowhere near productive in it). I guess the part that confuses me is the first step - "R stands for Reaching/Repeating" - How exactly would you apply this to learning a new language, framework, algorithm? Folks here on HN - Any words of advice?

bostonvaulter2 15y ago
Similar to what teach said you could apply some of it by trying to code without using the docs as much as possible. But I agree that it's hard to "practice" programming, versus "doing" programming. So much of programming is working with large complex systems that it isn't that amenable to small drilling techniques.
teach 15y ago
When I wanted to get better at Python, I started working through the problems at Project Euler[0], because they were novel and interesting. Also, many of them needed non-trivial optimizations to produce an answer in a reasonable amount of time. After about 20-25 problems, I found myself reaching for the Python docs way less. [0] http://projecteuler.net/ http://projecteuler.net/