6 ms·

Every time I see these kinds of video, whether that is of protein translation, kinesin walking on microtubule, or birth and death of a galaxy, I get this feelin

Every time I see these kinds of video, whether that is of protein translation, kinesin walking on microtubule, or birth and death of a galaxy, I get this feeling that Panpsychism is closer to truth that it gets credit for. Any constraints we put in the defining consciousness and life seems to be just some arbitrary constraint put there for our own convenience.

jes 6y ago
I am an Alan Watts fan. I think he would agree with you.
- djedr 6y ago
  He would definitely dig that. Curiously, I was drawn to this thread because I was just listening to him today, talking about crystals and the nature of reality. He would go thru so many topics in such detail and clarity, it's incredible.
  - jes 6y ago
    Same. I often notice the precision with which he used language. Such a joy to listen to. I especially like the chill-step YouTube videos some people assemble and publish. I download them with youtube-dl and listen to them on my phone at night while drifting off to sleep. At 61 years of age, the philosophy he describes (Advaita Vedanta / Zen Buddhism / Taoism) brings me great comfort.
    - thepace 6y ago
      Out of the many people I have heard talk about vedanta, Alan Watts is one of the most original ones.
    - djedr 6y ago
      > I often notice the precision with which he used language. Indeed. Hard to find an inaccuracy, even when he's talking about some details of technical subjects. He had an exceptional ability to translate between the spiritual and the technical in a way which seems to make complete sense. > Such a joy to listen to. A true spiritual entertainer. Never boring. I imagine he could be a stand-up comedian today. > I especially like the chill-step YouTube videos some people assemble and publish. I download them with youtube-dl and listen to them on my phone at night while drifting off to sleep. Similar, I went thru a lot of the material on youtube. High-quality material with transcripts can also be found here: https://www.organism.earth/library/author/alan-watts https://www.organism.earth/library/author/alan-watts A lot of it I listened to many times over and I keep getting new insights out of it, it's so densely packed. > At 61 years of age, the philosophy he describes (Advaita Vedanta / Zen Buddhism / Taoism) brings me great comfort. Definitely helps to know these philosophical perspectives, especially if one gets tangled up in some harmful model of reality. Somehow the basic (non-religious, just philosophical) Taoism seems to most align with me at the moment. I credit the Dao for solving a very tough naming problem for me. ;)
- jng 6y ago
  I love Alan Watts too. In any case, I need to insert the necessary reference to recently passed John Conway's Free Will Theorem. I recommend every one to watch his 6-lecture long presentation on this, available on YouTube and underappreciated given the number of views, where he captivatingly describes his proof that, if we have free will, so do elementary particles. This is a purely mathematics- and physics-based proof which I understand is fully accepted by the scientific community, and while it, of course, does not provide an explanation of the underlying cause, it provides the best possible description obtained by scientific methodology so far. I like to think that, somehow, Alan Watts and John Conway were digging the same tunnel, just starting from the two endpoints, and bound to meet at some point in the future. We just need a few more diggers of that stature (tall order, I know).
  - jes 6y ago
    Thank you for this reference. I’m a free will skeptic. Now looking forward to watching Conway’s series. I have a paper by Anthony Cashmore that I will cite here later.
  - jes 6y ago
    Paper from Anthony Cashmore that I mentioned previously: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842067/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842067/
wahern 6y ago
Panpsychism, pantheism, etc, are enticing because humans are predisposed to see patterns, structure, reason, and intelligence; to anthropomorphize nature. Characterizing as "arbitrary" our admittedly feeble and flawed attempts at distinguishing the human mind is an easy way to placate that underlying, intrinsic desire. Of course, maybe it is true! (That felt good to say :)
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Isn't panpsychism a kind of reverse materialism? Both seem to correctly recognize that terms we create are just lines we draw on our map through the terrain of reality, which we rank by their usefulness, by how close they seem to be "carving nature at its joints". Based on my brief skimming, panpsychism seems to say the terrain is all mysterious and wonderful, whereas materialism says it's all just mundane. Or am I completely mis-skimming the Wikipedia entry on panpsychism?
- perfmode 6y ago
  my question to you: do you consider yourself to be mysterious or just mundane? what is your experience of your own Being-ness?
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    A good question, something I'll have to think about. The immediate if indirect answer I can give you: I stopped feeling this sense of wonder, mystery, greater purpose of reality, somewhen during my university years. I only ever experience these feelings when consuming works of fiction.
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      C.S. Lewis described something similar with fiction ‘baptizing the imagination in longing’ https://andrewmarrosb.blog/articles/baptizing-the-imagination/ https://andrewmarrosb.blog/articles/baptizing-the-imaginatio...
  - gus_massa 6y ago
    > Do you consider yourself to be mysterious or just mundane? Mundane, that is even more amazing. > What is your experience of your own Being-ness? My electrons and nuclei are arranged in a weird pattern. If you ask them if I'm conscious, they can move another electrons and nuclei to type "yes". If you ask them if I'm lying, they can move another electrons and nuclei to type "no". It's just a strange pattern that simulates a delusion, don't trust them.
csomar 6y ago
> Any constraints we put in the defining consciousness and life seems to be just some arbitrary constraint put there for our own convenience. The definition of consciousness is very much tied to how humans (or some scientists) perceive consciousness. I'm pretty sure my dog is conscious of itself and its surrounding. It just happens to have a less sophisticated consciousness than the one I have. Some animals might have a pretty high consciousness but they fail to communicate it to the humans.
kharak 6y ago
I can't see this connection at all. Could someone who thinks or feels this way elaborate? Does this feeling arise because those atoms move? Or is it the self-assembling behavior? Is this the same feeling some people have when they see a door suddenly close due to the wind, as if some spirit is responsible? I remember feeling like this as a kid. But getting older, I realized that this feeling of agency behind everything is unfounded. And the feeling faded away.
mncharity 6y ago
> Every time I see these kinds of video, whether that is of protein translation, kinesin walking on microtubule, [...] I get this feeling that Panpsychism is closer to truth Those two are... sadly quite different than the TFA video. Those are cartoons, steeped in artistic license, accommodation of animation software limitations, and artists regrettably but intentionally prioritizing "pretty" over a misconception-spawning lack of resemblance to reality. Think of a video of Saint Trump's day, with frames selected to show him floating along, limbs unmoving, through a deserted White House. Problematic when learning biology. Not a good source of ground truth.

jes 6y ago

I am an Alan Watts fan. I think he would agree with you.

djedr 6y ago
He would definitely dig that. Curiously, I was drawn to this thread because I was just listening to him today, talking about crystals and the nature of reality. He would go thru so many topics in such detail and clarity, it's incredible.
- jes 6y ago
  Same. I often notice the precision with which he used language. Such a joy to listen to. I especially like the chill-step YouTube videos some people assemble and publish. I download them with youtube-dl and listen to them on my phone at night while drifting off to sleep. At 61 years of age, the philosophy he describes (Advaita Vedanta / Zen Buddhism / Taoism) brings me great comfort.
  - thepace 6y ago
    Out of the many people I have heard talk about vedanta, Alan Watts is one of the most original ones.
  - djedr 6y ago
    > I often notice the precision with which he used language. Indeed. Hard to find an inaccuracy, even when he's talking about some details of technical subjects. He had an exceptional ability to translate between the spiritual and the technical in a way which seems to make complete sense. > Such a joy to listen to. A true spiritual entertainer. Never boring. I imagine he could be a stand-up comedian today. > I especially like the chill-step YouTube videos some people assemble and publish. I download them with youtube-dl and listen to them on my phone at night while drifting off to sleep. Similar, I went thru a lot of the material on youtube. High-quality material with transcripts can also be found here: https://www.organism.earth/library/author/alan-watts https://www.organism.earth/library/author/alan-watts A lot of it I listened to many times over and I keep getting new insights out of it, it's so densely packed. > At 61 years of age, the philosophy he describes (Advaita Vedanta / Zen Buddhism / Taoism) brings me great comfort. Definitely helps to know these philosophical perspectives, especially if one gets tangled up in some harmful model of reality. Somehow the basic (non-religious, just philosophical) Taoism seems to most align with me at the moment. I credit the Dao for solving a very tough naming problem for me. ;)
jng 6y ago
I love Alan Watts too. In any case, I need to insert the necessary reference to recently passed John Conway's Free Will Theorem. I recommend every one to watch his 6-lecture long presentation on this, available on YouTube and underappreciated given the number of views, where he captivatingly describes his proof that, if we have free will, so do elementary particles. This is a purely mathematics- and physics-based proof which I understand is fully accepted by the scientific community, and while it, of course, does not provide an explanation of the underlying cause, it provides the best possible description obtained by scientific methodology so far. I like to think that, somehow, Alan Watts and John Conway were digging the same tunnel, just starting from the two endpoints, and bound to meet at some point in the future. We just need a few more diggers of that stature (tall order, I know).
- jes 6y ago
  Thank you for this reference. I’m a free will skeptic. Now looking forward to watching Conway’s series. I have a paper by Anthony Cashmore that I will cite here later.
- jes 6y ago
  Paper from Anthony Cashmore that I mentioned previously: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842067/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842067/

wahern 6y ago

Panpsychism, pantheism, etc, are enticing because humans are predisposed to see patterns, structure, reason, and intelligence; to anthropomorphize nature. Characterizing as "arbitrary" our admittedly feeble and flawed attempts at distinguishing the human mind is an easy way to placate that underlying, intrinsic desire. Of course, maybe it is true! (That felt good to say :)

TeMPOraL 6y ago

Isn't panpsychism a kind of reverse materialism? Both seem to correctly recognize that terms we create are just lines we draw on our map through the terrain of reality, which we rank by their usefulness, by how close they seem to be "carving nature at its joints". Based on my brief skimming, panpsychism seems to say the terrain is all mysterious and wonderful, whereas materialism says it's all just mundane. Or am I completely mis-skimming the Wikipedia entry on panpsychism?

perfmode 6y ago
my question to you: do you consider yourself to be mysterious or just mundane? what is your experience of your own Being-ness?
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  A good question, something I'll have to think about. The immediate if indirect answer I can give you: I stopped feeling this sense of wonder, mystery, greater purpose of reality, somewhen during my university years. I only ever experience these feelings when consuming works of fiction.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    C.S. Lewis described something similar with fiction ‘baptizing the imagination in longing’ https://andrewmarrosb.blog/articles/baptizing-the-imagination/ https://andrewmarrosb.blog/articles/baptizing-the-imaginatio...
- gus_massa 6y ago
  > Do you consider yourself to be mysterious or just mundane? Mundane, that is even more amazing. > What is your experience of your own Being-ness? My electrons and nuclei are arranged in a weird pattern. If you ask them if I'm conscious, they can move another electrons and nuclei to type "yes". If you ask them if I'm lying, they can move another electrons and nuclei to type "no". It's just a strange pattern that simulates a delusion, don't trust them.

csomar 6y ago

> Any constraints we put in the defining consciousness and life seems to be just some arbitrary constraint put there for our own convenience. The definition of consciousness is very much tied to how humans (or some scientists) perceive consciousness. I'm pretty sure my dog is conscious of itself and its surrounding. It just happens to have a less sophisticated consciousness than the one I have. Some animals might have a pretty high consciousness but they fail to communicate it to the humans.

kharak 6y ago

I can't see this connection at all. Could someone who thinks or feels this way elaborate? Does this feeling arise because those atoms move? Or is it the self-assembling behavior? Is this the same feeling some people have when they see a door suddenly close due to the wind, as if some spirit is responsible? I remember feeling like this as a kid. But getting older, I realized that this feeling of agency behind everything is unfounded. And the feeling faded away.

mncharity 6y ago

> Every time I see these kinds of video, whether that is of protein translation, kinesin walking on microtubule, [...] I get this feeling that Panpsychism is closer to truth Those two are... sadly quite different than the TFA video. Those are cartoons, steeped in artistic license, accommodation of animation software limitations, and artists regrettably but intentionally prioritizing "pretty" over a misconception-spawning lack of resemblance to reality. Think of a video of Saint Trump's day, with frames selected to show him floating along, limbs unmoving, through a deserted White House. Problematic when learning biology. Not a good source of ground truth.