5 ms·

Can somebody explain, since this was a long planned coup attempt against a Capitol that has its own police force, in a capital that has one of the largest and m

Can somebody explain, since this was a long planned coup attempt against a Capitol that has its own police force, in a capital that has one of the largest and most heavily armed police forces in the world, why did the guncrazy far right militants leave their guns at home? And instead behaved mostly like an out of control protest with a few dozen violent rioters? It is a very peculiar way to attempt to overthrow a government.

mgkimsal 6y ago
I suspect they thought there'd be more complicity or active support from the police/guards. bringing your guns out in the open directly would have been too visible a giveaway up front, giving people time to react/block.
- throwaway_6142 6y ago
  Oh, of course; 'my political enemies are moustash-twirling evil geniuses whose masterful contrived plan months in the making is such an imminent threat to democracy that we must suspend it to save it, but they are simultaneously ridiculously stupid and comically inept imbecilles completely detached from reality'. It sounds suspiciously like the crude rhetoric of war progaganda to dehumanize an enemy. Edit: instaflagged of course, stay classy lefties.
afavour 6y ago
You don’t need the guns if you have people on the inside. And a good number of the rioters seemed really quite surprised when law enforcement fought back against them. After all, they were carrying Blue Lives Matter flags, surely the cops are on their side! (and besides, there were a good number of people with guns at the protest. And some others brought pipe bombs. Thankfully neither ended up being a factor but no one would have known that at the time)
- throwaway316943 6y ago
  Doesn’t add up. How are you going to hold the Capitol or any hostages without weapons?
  - afavour 6y ago
    As I said, they did have weapons. Not an overwhelming amount of them certainly, but more than enough to pose a threat if they managed to capture Nancy Pelosi. And again: if you have the support of the police (and potentially also the armed forces) it’s all pretty moot anyway.
  - nl 6y ago
    The QAnon "storm" narrative revolved around unnamed "true patriots" within some unnamed national security service rising up to overthrow the corrupt.. something. Or at least that's the common interpretation of QAnon ramblings. But the point is that there wasn't any centralised leadership plotting this. There was some groups (who did have weapons) who were absolutely planning this, but the protestors in general was much more decentralized in purpose and method.
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    The FBI divulged this morning that the Oath Keepers, a right-wing militia, were trying to trap congress members in the underground tunnels of the capitol to gas them.
    - masonic 6y ago
      No, they didn't. FBI charging documents make zero references to any of the OK defendants possessing any form of lethal, or even irritant, gas weapons.
      - three_seagrass 6y ago
        Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. FBI charging documents do make references to the telecommunications of the OK defendants, where they are trying to trap and gas congress people under the capitol.
simonh 6y ago
A lot of the protesters have said they expected the police to be largely on their side. I suspect that when things got violent both the armed rioters and police realised that guns would just end up in a blood bath on both sides, and the first person to shoot on either side would probably end up dead pretty quickly.
- throwaway_6142 6y ago
  If I suspend my disbelief for a second, do you have a link to any interviews or similar with those protesters? Surely you are not conflating quotes from peaceful demonstrators against (alleged) election fraud, with militants trying to violently overthrow the government?
  - simonh 6y ago
    Here's a WP article on it. I remember seeing video of a woman retreating from the Capitol saying something about them being on the same side as the police and complaining why they weren't joining them, but I can't find it, sorry. One of the protesters was carrying blue lives matter flag. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IKWa_6nf0pQJ:https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/capitol-police-officers-support/2021/01/08/a16e07a2-51da-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IKWa_6...
    - philwelch 6y ago
      Is this the same woman who was crying, “they pushed me down and maced me” while dabbing her face with an onion?
      - simonh 6y ago
        That's the one. There's a theory that onions help neutralise the effects of mace, they've been used by protesters in the Middle East for this and it's possible some of the Capitol rioters came with them and gave her one.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> why did the guncrazy far right militants leave their guns at home? Because despite their public rhetoric and willingness to carry guns when they don’t expect law enforcement opposition, they realized that their only chance of success at the Capitol was to not be treated by law enforcement the way that law enforcement (including the Secret Service) would treat a visibly-armed mob surrounding the Capitol during proceedings (which include Secret Service protectees).
- thoughtstheseus 6y ago
  How did they coordinate not bringing guns? Or did they each individually realize this strategy without coordination? I think you’re giving them too much credit here.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    I agree that “realized their chance of success” makes it more group-strategic than is probably warranted. “Realized that the likely law enforcement stance likely at the Capitol would make visibly carrying a firearm increase their personal risk rather than their effectiveness” is probably more accurate.

mgkimsal 6y ago

I suspect they thought there'd be more complicity or active support from the police/guards. bringing your guns out in the open directly would have been too visible a giveaway up front, giving people time to react/block.

throwaway_6142 6y ago
Oh, of course; 'my political enemies are moustash-twirling evil geniuses whose masterful contrived plan months in the making is such an imminent threat to democracy that we must suspend it to save it, but they are simultaneously ridiculously stupid and comically inept imbecilles completely detached from reality'. It sounds suspiciously like the crude rhetoric of war progaganda to dehumanize an enemy. Edit: instaflagged of course, stay classy lefties.

afavour 6y ago

You don’t need the guns if you have people on the inside. And a good number of the rioters seemed really quite surprised when law enforcement fought back against them. After all, they were carrying Blue Lives Matter flags, surely the cops are on their side! (and besides, there were a good number of people with guns at the protest. And some others brought pipe bombs. Thankfully neither ended up being a factor but no one would have known that at the time)

throwaway316943 6y ago
Doesn’t add up. How are you going to hold the Capitol or any hostages without weapons?
- afavour 6y ago
  As I said, they did have weapons. Not an overwhelming amount of them certainly, but more than enough to pose a threat if they managed to capture Nancy Pelosi. And again: if you have the support of the police (and potentially also the armed forces) it’s all pretty moot anyway.
- nl 6y ago
  The QAnon "storm" narrative revolved around unnamed "true patriots" within some unnamed national security service rising up to overthrow the corrupt.. something. Or at least that's the common interpretation of QAnon ramblings. But the point is that there wasn't any centralised leadership plotting this. There was some groups (who did have weapons) who were absolutely planning this, but the protestors in general was much more decentralized in purpose and method.
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  The FBI divulged this morning that the Oath Keepers, a right-wing militia, were trying to trap congress members in the underground tunnels of the capitol to gas them.
  - masonic 6y ago
    No, they didn't. FBI charging documents make zero references to any of the OK defendants possessing any form of lethal, or even irritant, gas weapons.
    - three_seagrass 6y ago
      Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. FBI charging documents do make references to the telecommunications of the OK defendants, where they are trying to trap and gas congress people under the capitol.

simonh 6y ago

A lot of the protesters have said they expected the police to be largely on their side. I suspect that when things got violent both the armed rioters and police realised that guns would just end up in a blood bath on both sides, and the first person to shoot on either side would probably end up dead pretty quickly.

throwaway_6142 6y ago
If I suspend my disbelief for a second, do you have a link to any interviews or similar with those protesters? Surely you are not conflating quotes from peaceful demonstrators against (alleged) election fraud, with militants trying to violently overthrow the government?
- simonh 6y ago
  Here's a WP article on it. I remember seeing video of a woman retreating from the Capitol saying something about them being on the same side as the police and complaining why they weren't joining them, but I can't find it, sorry. One of the protesters was carrying blue lives matter flag. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IKWa_6nf0pQJ:https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/capitol-police-officers-support/2021/01/08/a16e07a2-51da-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IKWa_6...
  - philwelch 6y ago
    Is this the same woman who was crying, “they pushed me down and maced me” while dabbing her face with an onion?
    - simonh 6y ago
      That's the one. There's a theory that onions help neutralise the effects of mace, they've been used by protesters in the Middle East for this and it's possible some of the Capitol rioters came with them and gave her one.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> why did the guncrazy far right militants leave their guns at home? Because despite their public rhetoric and willingness to carry guns when they don’t expect law enforcement opposition, they realized that their only chance of success at the Capitol was to not be treated by law enforcement the way that law enforcement (including the Secret Service) would treat a visibly-armed mob surrounding the Capitol during proceedings (which include Secret Service protectees).

thoughtstheseus 6y ago
How did they coordinate not bringing guns? Or did they each individually realize this strategy without coordination? I think you’re giving them too much credit here.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  I agree that “realized their chance of success” makes it more group-strategic than is probably warranted. “Realized that the likely law enforcement stance likely at the Capitol would make visibly carrying a firearm increase their personal risk rather than their effectiveness” is probably more accurate.