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twitter didn't remove it initially and must have done so only after backlash pointing out their hypocrisy. Opponents of Trump have had free reign the last four

by dc2k08 6y ago

twitter didn't remove it initially and must have done so only after backlash pointing out their hypocrisy. Opponents of Trump have had free reign the last four years to incite violence against him and his supporters. Once you label your opponents nazis you can say what you like as far as the tech giants are concerned.

tsimionescu 6y ago
But, IF your opponents ARE literal swastika-flashing nazis, isn't it a net good to have them harassed wherever they pop their heads?
- esyir 6y ago
  This is precisely the sort of water muddying via association
- esyir 6y ago
  This is the specific sort of muddying via association that's often used. Suddenly, trump is a literal swastika flashing nazi, and that's why twitter banned him. Associating people with the worst of whatever group you can lump them in, then following up with "they're that guy"
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    No, Trump is not a literal swastika-flashing Nazi. BUT, there are literal groups of swastika-flashing Nazis that do support Trump. Targeting these people with harassment should be encouraged, NOT because they support Trump, but because they are Nazis. Trump and non-nazi Trump supporters MUST NOT be harassed by simple association, EXCEPT to the extent that they are themselves protecting the nazis, or trying to muddy the waters. Because a lot of people ARE muddying the waters from the "Trump" side as well: instead of recognizing that many attacks are against literal nazis who happen to support Trump, they act as if the attacks are against Trump supporters in general, or that people are calling a crowd nazis because they support Trump, not because they were chanting "jews will not replace us". Or claiming that Trump, who said about the crowd chanting "jews will not replace us" and the antifa counter-protest "there are fine people on both sides", was not literally defending nazis in this case.
    - Veen 6y ago
      > Trump and non-nazi Trump supporters MUST NOT be harassed by simple association, EXCEPT to the extent that they are themselves protecting the nazis, or trying to muddy the waters. That's the thin end of the wedge though. - Muslims must not be harassed by simple association, except where they muddy the waters to protect Islamists. - Feminists must not be harassed by simple association, except where they muddy the waters to protect transphobes. - Conservatives must not be harassed by simple association, except where they muddy the waters to protect an anti-gay rights agenda. "Muddying the water" is dangerously vague. Who adjudicates between good-faith arguments and those intended to give cover for extremists?
    - simonh 6y ago
      He's not a Nazi although he's willing to ally with them, but I believe he is a Fascist, on the basis that he has nothing but contempt for democracy and the rule of law (among other things). He pulled exactly the same 'stop the steal' crap in 2016, claiming massive voter fraud then as well, as a pre-emptive strike in case he lost. But hang on, if he actually believed there was massive voter fraud, how come he did nothing about it for four years eve when he controlled both houses? Where were his reforms of the voting system, increased supervision of voting and vote counting? why no improvements to ballot security and statistical analysis to identify the fraud (the current analyses show it's negligible). If he actually believed what he is saying about vote fraud, why didn't he act on it? He did nothing about this for two reasons. First he knows there isn't any significant vote fraud, this is well established and was not a partisan issue before he started talking about it. Second, if he reformed voting security, he would become responsible for preventing any potential fraud and would be unable to blame failings in the system on anyone else, taking away his excuse.
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      > EXCEPT to the extent that they are themselves protecting the nazis like BLM protesters providing cover to violent antifa & rioters, you mean?
      - Chris2048 6y ago
        Knew this was going to get downvotes. How very dare I apply the standards of the left to BLM. I've yet to see a good argument that this isn't s double standard though - your actions either aid bad actors, or they don't, whether through explicit support or indifference. If you're part of a protest and it begins to turns bad, either repel the rioters, or leave - it's not impossible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZ_VJXWtNs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZ_VJXWtNs Otherwise, how are you not complicit?
KozmoNau7 6y ago
Anarchists and socialists have been demonetized and banned in wide swathes for years. Crimeth!nc and others are banned from Facebook and Twitter etc. You just don't see it, because it's outside of your bubble of interest.
- throwawayForMe2 6y ago
  Crimethinc and many Antifa groups are active on Twitter https://twitter.com/crimethinc https://twitter.com/crimethinc
  - simonh 6y ago
    So are many far right groups, individual examples don't prove anything.

by dc2k08 6y ago

tsimionescu 6y ago

But, IF your opponents ARE literal swastika-flashing nazis, isn't it a net good to have them harassed wherever they pop their heads?

esyir 6y ago
This is precisely the sort of water muddying via association
esyir 6y ago
This is the specific sort of muddying via association that's often used. Suddenly, trump is a literal swastika flashing nazi, and that's why twitter banned him. Associating people with the worst of whatever group you can lump them in, then following up with "they're that guy"
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  No, Trump is not a literal swastika-flashing Nazi. BUT, there are literal groups of swastika-flashing Nazis that do support Trump. Targeting these people with harassment should be encouraged, NOT because they support Trump, but because they are Nazis. Trump and non-nazi Trump supporters MUST NOT be harassed by simple association, EXCEPT to the extent that they are themselves protecting the nazis, or trying to muddy the waters. Because a lot of people ARE muddying the waters from the "Trump" side as well: instead of recognizing that many attacks are against literal nazis who happen to support Trump, they act as if the attacks are against Trump supporters in general, or that people are calling a crowd nazis because they support Trump, not because they were chanting "jews will not replace us". Or claiming that Trump, who said about the crowd chanting "jews will not replace us" and the antifa counter-protest "there are fine people on both sides", was not literally defending nazis in this case.
  - Veen 6y ago
    > Trump and non-nazi Trump supporters MUST NOT be harassed by simple association, EXCEPT to the extent that they are themselves protecting the nazis, or trying to muddy the waters. That's the thin end of the wedge though. - Muslims must not be harassed by simple association, except where they muddy the waters to protect Islamists. - Feminists must not be harassed by simple association, except where they muddy the waters to protect transphobes. - Conservatives must not be harassed by simple association, except where they muddy the waters to protect an anti-gay rights agenda. "Muddying the water" is dangerously vague. Who adjudicates between good-faith arguments and those intended to give cover for extremists?
  - simonh 6y ago
    He's not a Nazi although he's willing to ally with them, but I believe he is a Fascist, on the basis that he has nothing but contempt for democracy and the rule of law (among other things). He pulled exactly the same 'stop the steal' crap in 2016, claiming massive voter fraud then as well, as a pre-emptive strike in case he lost. But hang on, if he actually believed there was massive voter fraud, how come he did nothing about it for four years eve when he controlled both houses? Where were his reforms of the voting system, increased supervision of voting and vote counting? why no improvements to ballot security and statistical analysis to identify the fraud (the current analyses show it's negligible). If he actually believed what he is saying about vote fraud, why didn't he act on it? He did nothing about this for two reasons. First he knows there isn't any significant vote fraud, this is well established and was not a partisan issue before he started talking about it. Second, if he reformed voting security, he would become responsible for preventing any potential fraud and would be unable to blame failings in the system on anyone else, taking away his excuse.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    > EXCEPT to the extent that they are themselves protecting the nazis like BLM protesters providing cover to violent antifa & rioters, you mean?
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      Knew this was going to get downvotes. How very dare I apply the standards of the left to BLM. I've yet to see a good argument that this isn't s double standard though - your actions either aid bad actors, or they don't, whether through explicit support or indifference. If you're part of a protest and it begins to turns bad, either repel the rioters, or leave - it's not impossible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZ_VJXWtNs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZ_VJXWtNs Otherwise, how are you not complicit?

KozmoNau7 6y ago

Anarchists and socialists have been demonetized and banned in wide swathes for years. Crimeth!nc and others are banned from Facebook and Twitter etc. You just don't see it, because it's outside of your bubble of interest.

throwawayForMe2 6y ago
Crimethinc and many Antifa groups are active on Twitter https://twitter.com/crimethinc https://twitter.com/crimethinc
- simonh 6y ago
  So are many far right groups, individual examples don't prove anything.