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His assumptions are built into his response. He said "how about this symbolism!" and talked about a piece of cloth. I'm now asking what an unarmed woman with b

His assumptions are built into his response. He said "how about this symbolism!" and talked about a piece of cloth. I'm now asking what an unarmed woman with blood pooling out of her head symbolizes. If it helps you answer the question at all, she was also a US military veteran with four tours of service.

matham 6y ago
It symbolizes nothing. A flag is a symbol for an idea and means nothing on its own. A death is not a symbol for anything but means a lot on its own. I really don't understand how this is relevant to flying that flag which represents much intentional suffering, to which the above poster objected.
- refurb 6y ago
  A death is not a symbol? We’re you around for the protests this summer?
  - 1000units 6y ago
    I'd like to shove a picture of a pile of corpses from Auschwitz in this guy's face and ask him what he thinks. We need to test whether the death of innocent people symbolizes something only if it serves some pet political impulse or not.
tehwebguy 6y ago
Yeah, this is a tragedy and a failure of the VA as well. I’m sure there is a program (or several) to help our vets adjust to civilian life but it needs to be updated to help build community so they aren’t as likely to get sucked into Qanon or similar cults like she did. Separately, we need to continue to raise our expectations of police ability to de-escalate situations. This is one of many, many unarmed civilians killed by police in recent years. Normally they aren’t storming the capitol, but it should still be possible for police / secret service to de-escalate a situation like this. It won’t happen until our DAs and various state attorneys start charging cops that kill.
- 1000units 6y ago
  My only advice to you is never try this schtick in a veteran's face. I'm sure you wouldn't, though. You don't deserve their sacrifices.
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    It’s not a schtick. This woman was apparently sucked into Qanon, a cult that targets soldiers & veterans and apparently went from someone who spent more than a decade respecting a strict chain of command in the air force to breaking into the nation’s capitol. While climbing through a window that had the glass smashed out she was shot. Shooting an intruder is like the most protected type of self defense there is, so it’s to be expected when breaking into any building, no? So what happened to make her think this wouldn’t get her killed? That doesn’t make it any less of a tragedy, even more so. Someone that served honorably shouldn’t be left alone to get sucked into all of this. That said, in the video I can’t hear anyone issue a verbal command such as “Get back or we’ll shoot!” or anything like that. There should have been de-escalation at this point IMO. There were other ways to deal with this aside from shooting her. (This is a problem with probably every law enforcement agency in the country, a very recent public example is the Breonna Taylor case where police chose one of the most dangerous possible ways to serve a warrant and created a deadly situation where there was none before)
    - 1000units 6y ago
      It's absurd to intimate the grievances people have surrounding the 2020 election are cult conspiracies. I have enough reasons to dislike Trump, and I'll tell you this election was an absolute disaster. It's obvious to any neutral party.
      - tehwebguy 6y ago
        Qanon is not a set of grievances, and someone does not have to buy into Q in order to support Trump. For anyone wondering: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon
kace91 6y ago
Symbols usually become symbols due to them being glaring examples of an injustice. George Floyd became a symbol, for example, due to the obvious unreasonableness of him being killed violently on the street when an officer responded to the use of a counterfeit bill. People don't consider that a reasonable reaction. If you had asked any American a week ago about what they think is a reasonable reaction for an officer faced with people trying to surpass a barricade, that has been set up for security reasons inside a government building to protect the people inside, after said building has been trespassed by a crowd breaking through the windows, I don't think "shooting" would have been unexpected.As some people pointed out half jokingly, "you can't even try that in GTA". I don't see the relevance of mentioning that woman's connection to the military either, other than emphasising that she should have known better. In opposition, I think the flag that symbolises the right of people to own slaves, being flown without consequence in the meeting place of congress while the officers stand around and take selfies with the mob, sends a clear message to the descendants of slaves about how much can they expect to be protected and represented by that democracy. Even more so in a climate where they have been violently repressed for protesting inequality.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  It's not just about slavery. Today's "Confederate flag" is literally a rebel battle flag from a horrifying civil war. The fact that said civil war was instigated by the rebels specifically to protect the institution of slavery is just bonus. It is a very powerful symbol. Anyone who claims it's about Southern heritage is being deliberately ignorant. It's blatantly oppositional, self-serving, and violent.
guns_on_the_run 6y ago
It's unfortunate that you're being downvoted, you make an excellent point. George Floyd was murdered by police during a routine arrest. Ashli Babbitt was executed by police for trespassing during a protest. Both of these (and many others) are powerfully symbolic: of an overbearing and largely unaccountable police state, in which its enforcers use violence as a first resort.
- stef25 6y ago
  People tend to lose sight of the fact that something like 99.9% of interactions between police and civilians involves no violence at all.
- 1000units 6y ago
  George Floyd was a common criminal coming down from a large fentanyl dose (nevertheless RIP), Ashli Babbitt was a military veteran acting in an expressly conscientious manner alongside a large gathering of other like-minded political activists. Surely these are both tragic losses, and yet the common criminal received immeasurably greater sympathies here and elsewhere. What's going on? Were BLM grievances not rooted in an equitable respect for the sanctity of life and an earnest desire for peaceful coexistence? Perhaps this explains the months of undirected destruction that followed across the country in the middle of what was represented as a dire pandemic? Maybe these people are hypocrites, useful idiots, bigots, and losers?
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    From what I remember the common criminal was not resisting the arrest and got slowly suffocated by a police officer using a technique that is not sanctionned for neutralizing suspects. The military veteran - gathering with like minded people who thought they were sent there to make a coup and storm the capitole and one of them was carrying colsons so who knows what else they planned to do - try to get further in the capitole, with the support of a mob behind her singing threats, to wreak havoc. How you think your attempt to fabricate an alternative reality on HN is going to fly is beyond me. > Were BLM grievances not rooted in an equitable respect for the sanctity of life and an earnest desire for peaceful coexistence? GF was slowly put to death. Ashli Babbit broke through a doorglass after breaking into the capitole with people who had previously brought the flag down and claimed to overturn a democratic election. I don't see this act as a sign of wanting a peaceful coexistence.

matham 6y ago

It symbolizes nothing. A flag is a symbol for an idea and means nothing on its own. A death is not a symbol for anything but means a lot on its own. I really don't understand how this is relevant to flying that flag which represents much intentional suffering, to which the above poster objected.

refurb 6y ago
A death is not a symbol? We’re you around for the protests this summer?
- 1000units 6y ago
  I'd like to shove a picture of a pile of corpses from Auschwitz in this guy's face and ask him what he thinks. We need to test whether the death of innocent people symbolizes something only if it serves some pet political impulse or not.

tehwebguy 6y ago

Yeah, this is a tragedy and a failure of the VA as well. I’m sure there is a program (or several) to help our vets adjust to civilian life but it needs to be updated to help build community so they aren’t as likely to get sucked into Qanon or similar cults like she did. Separately, we need to continue to raise our expectations of police ability to de-escalate situations. This is one of many, many unarmed civilians killed by police in recent years. Normally they aren’t storming the capitol, but it should still be possible for police / secret service to de-escalate a situation like this. It won’t happen until our DAs and various state attorneys start charging cops that kill.

1000units 6y ago
My only advice to you is never try this schtick in a veteran's face. I'm sure you wouldn't, though. You don't deserve their sacrifices.
- tehwebguy 6y ago
  It’s not a schtick. This woman was apparently sucked into Qanon, a cult that targets soldiers & veterans and apparently went from someone who spent more than a decade respecting a strict chain of command in the air force to breaking into the nation’s capitol. While climbing through a window that had the glass smashed out she was shot. Shooting an intruder is like the most protected type of self defense there is, so it’s to be expected when breaking into any building, no? So what happened to make her think this wouldn’t get her killed? That doesn’t make it any less of a tragedy, even more so. Someone that served honorably shouldn’t be left alone to get sucked into all of this. That said, in the video I can’t hear anyone issue a verbal command such as “Get back or we’ll shoot!” or anything like that. There should have been de-escalation at this point IMO. There were other ways to deal with this aside from shooting her. (This is a problem with probably every law enforcement agency in the country, a very recent public example is the Breonna Taylor case where police chose one of the most dangerous possible ways to serve a warrant and created a deadly situation where there was none before)
  - 1000units 6y ago
    It's absurd to intimate the grievances people have surrounding the 2020 election are cult conspiracies. I have enough reasons to dislike Trump, and I'll tell you this election was an absolute disaster. It's obvious to any neutral party.
    - tehwebguy 6y ago
      Qanon is not a set of grievances, and someone does not have to buy into Q in order to support Trump. For anyone wondering: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon

kace91 6y ago

Symbols usually become symbols due to them being glaring examples of an injustice. George Floyd became a symbol, for example, due to the obvious unreasonableness of him being killed violently on the street when an officer responded to the use of a counterfeit bill. People don't consider that a reasonable reaction. If you had asked any American a week ago about what they think is a reasonable reaction for an officer faced with people trying to surpass a barricade, that has been set up for security reasons inside a government building to protect the people inside, after said building has been trespassed by a crowd breaking through the windows, I don't think "shooting" would have been unexpected.As some people pointed out half jokingly, "you can't even try that in GTA". I don't see the relevance of mentioning that woman's connection to the military either, other than emphasising that she should have known better. In opposition, I think the flag that symbolises the right of people to own slaves, being flown without consequence in the meeting place of congress while the officers stand around and take selfies with the mob, sends a clear message to the descendants of slaves about how much can they expect to be protected and represented by that democracy. Even more so in a climate where they have been violently repressed for protesting inequality.

nerdponx 6y ago
It's not just about slavery. Today's "Confederate flag" is literally a rebel battle flag from a horrifying civil war. The fact that said civil war was instigated by the rebels specifically to protect the institution of slavery is just bonus. It is a very powerful symbol. Anyone who claims it's about Southern heritage is being deliberately ignorant. It's blatantly oppositional, self-serving, and violent.

guns_on_the_run 6y ago

It's unfortunate that you're being downvoted, you make an excellent point. George Floyd was murdered by police during a routine arrest. Ashli Babbitt was executed by police for trespassing during a protest. Both of these (and many others) are powerfully symbolic: of an overbearing and largely unaccountable police state, in which its enforcers use violence as a first resort.

stef25 6y ago
People tend to lose sight of the fact that something like 99.9% of interactions between police and civilians involves no violence at all.
1000units 6y ago
George Floyd was a common criminal coming down from a large fentanyl dose (nevertheless RIP), Ashli Babbitt was a military veteran acting in an expressly conscientious manner alongside a large gathering of other like-minded political activists. Surely these are both tragic losses, and yet the common criminal received immeasurably greater sympathies here and elsewhere. What's going on? Were BLM grievances not rooted in an equitable respect for the sanctity of life and an earnest desire for peaceful coexistence? Perhaps this explains the months of undirected destruction that followed across the country in the middle of what was represented as a dire pandemic? Maybe these people are hypocrites, useful idiots, bigots, and losers?
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  From what I remember the common criminal was not resisting the arrest and got slowly suffocated by a police officer using a technique that is not sanctionned for neutralizing suspects. The military veteran - gathering with like minded people who thought they were sent there to make a coup and storm the capitole and one of them was carrying colsons so who knows what else they planned to do - try to get further in the capitole, with the support of a mob behind her singing threats, to wreak havoc. How you think your attempt to fabricate an alternative reality on HN is going to fly is beyond me. > Were BLM grievances not rooted in an equitable respect for the sanctity of life and an earnest desire for peaceful coexistence? GF was slowly put to death. Ashli Babbit broke through a doorglass after breaking into the capitole with people who had previously brought the flag down and claimed to overturn a democratic election. I don't see this act as a sign of wanting a peaceful coexistence.