7 ms·

Taking FOSDEM online via Matrix

213 points by neiljohnson 6y ago

Ericson2314 6y ago
We had a wonderful all-free-software NixCon 2020 a few months ago (with live talks via Jitsi for talker but not audience for better networking topology). All the code is in https://github.com/nixcon/nixcon-video-infra https://github.com/nixcon/nixcon-video-infra. It's probably too close to FOSDOM for the Element crew to hop on the Nix bandwagon for this project, alas, but I look forward to seeing the FOSDEM effort and and ours cross-pollinate in the future!
- Arathorn 6y ago
  very cool - thanks for the pointer :) There seems to be a lot of Nix / Matrix crossover, although for hosting the Matrix bits of FOSDEM we'll be using Debian this time (especially given the crazy tight timeline).
  - Ericson2314 6y ago
    Indeed there is! Yes the crazy tight timeline indeed justifies it. We'll just get you all off Debian by next year's :).
Reventlov 6y ago
« folks can jump on board and participate via their own servers, clients, bridges, bots etc » Last time I checked, there was only one server really developped, not lagging behind, did that change recently ?
- est31 6y ago
  I think this refers to server instances instead of server implementations.
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    It does - the point is that anyone can spin up their own Matrix server (or pick an existing one) and get involved; they don't have to use the fosdem.org one. Separately, in terms of implementations: Dendrite is usable these days, albeit beta: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/08/dendrite-is-entering-beta https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/08/dendrite-is-entering-beta, and meanwhile Synapse is stable. Conduit (https://conduit.rs https://conduit.rs) is making progress on federation (and works for simple use cases), and Construct (https://github.com/matrix-construct/construct https://github.com/matrix-construct/construct) exists too.
- the_duke 6y ago
  Sibling comments already mention that this is about custom instances and bridging. Matrix is an open network, you can participate with your own server. But also note that there is a very actively developed new (official) server implementation called Dendrite. [1] It's somewhere between alpha and beta. Dendrite also has some experimental support for peer to peer. [2] [1] https://github.com/matrix-org/dendrite https://github.com/matrix-org/dendrite [2] https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix
dexwell 6y ago
Matrix has such incredible potential, but is still missing a mainstream-focused IM client with a beautiful UI and appealing UX. If there are any Swift devs looking for a passion/side project like this, hit me up (link in bio)!
- lifty 6y ago
  Wouldn't https://nio.chat https://nio.chat qualify?
  - dexwell 6y ago
    I’ve actually had a pleasant chat with the developer of Nio regarding working together, but we ended up deciding it’s better to work on separate projects. Nio is still in very early stages; the developer plans to refactor most of the app and couldn’t commit to a specific timeline or direction for it. On top of that, my vision for a client includes spinning up a (privacy-focused) business and later expanding to web, Android, and PCs.
- mxuribe 6y ago
  My favorite client is still Element, but I'll admit to not really being a "mainstream-focused" user. But, I have dabbled a little in Fluffy Chat [https://fluffychat.im https://fluffychat.im], and am encouraged that it might fit the need for many lay users...At least from what I've seen so far (it is still a work in progress, though quite usable).
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  You don't have to like it, but how is Element not mainstream-focused in its objectives?
  - dexwell 6y ago
    Element looks and feels more like a replacement for Discord or Slack than WhatsApp or Messenger. My intention is to build an alternative to the latter two in terms of UI/UX. Something your grandma could use, like Signal, but decentralized and with features like quote replies and message editing. The goal would be to build a beautiful, private, secure, delightful instant messaging app that happens to run on Matrix, rather than building a Matrix client period. It’d still allow power users to do stuff like federation, but would by default abstract techie/Matrix concepts like homeservers, rooms, and encryption keys.
motiejus 6y ago
I have set up synapse myself a few months ago for my personal domain. I am a happy user so, have been bridging my different chat applications through it. There is one caveat: looks like "agreeing on how to do video" is not a Matrix standard; it's in the UI configuration or "widgets", which means only matrix/element combo is "properly" supported (with caveats). Has anyone had success running video calls over Matrix without Element? Is there any movement on the protocol side? Extending to this thread, will non-element applications have reasonable support for watching (video) fosdem?
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  > There is one caveat: looks like "agreeing on how to do video" is not a Matrix standard; it's in the UI configuration or "widgets", which means only matrix/element combo is "properly" supported (with caveats). Sounds like XMPP all over again.
  - mromanuk 6y ago
    > Sounds like XMPP all over again. It's different, it's addressed here: https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matrix-and-xmpp%3F https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matri... We think of Matrix and XMPP as being quite different; at its core Matrix can be thought of as an eventually consistent global JSON database with an HTTP API and pubsub semantics - whilst XMPP can be thought of as a message passing protocol. You can use them both to build chat systems; you can use them both to build pubsub systems; each comes with different tradeoffs. Matrix has a deliberately extensive 'kitchen sink' baseline of functionality; XMPP has a deliberately minimal baseline set of functionality. If XMPP does what you need it to do, then we're genuinely happy for you! Meanwhile, rather than competing, an XMPP Bridge like Skaverat's xmpptrix beta or jfred's matrix-xmpp-bridge or Matrix.org's own purple-matrix has potential to let both environments coexist and make the most of each other's benefits. The whole area of XMPP vs Matrix is quite subjective. Rather than fighting over which open interoperable communication standard works the best, we should just collaborate and bridge everything together. The more federation and interoperability the better.
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
sudhirkhanger 6y ago
Matrix is amazing but even as a programmer I have no idea what their Security and Privacy page means. If it is meant for masses then average Joe should be able to understand it.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Links to the pages you're referring to? I found their Privacy Policy surprisingly approachable (https://matrix.org/legal/privacy-notice https://matrix.org/legal/privacy-notice). Maybe because I've read through tons of policies before, but theirs seem to use very easy language, even for someone who's not a native English speaker. Could not find any page who's title is just "Security".
  - sudhirkhanger 6y ago
    I meant the User name>Settings>Security & Privacy page. It can be found when you click on the username. Verifying devices on new login, keeping the recovery key safe, etc. will be difficult for users.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      Sounds like you're talking about a Matrix client, not Matrix itself. So I still don't know what you're talking about exactly, which client are you using?
      - sudhirkhanger 6y ago
        Sorry. Yes, I was talking about Element. https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element
pjmlp 6y ago
I guess it will be first FOSDEM where everyone can fit on the rooms without missing the last 10 minutes of the previous talk.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  I will never understand why they don't schedule the talks with gaps in between them.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    There's a lot of pressure when scheduling events to try to maximize the number of sessions accepted and given. But, yeah, the last time I was at FOSDEM, I decided to pretty much hang out in specific devrooms and it was a much better experience than trying to run from session to session.
    - ognarb 6y ago
      Last year I attended FOSDEM not for the talks but for meeting people, the social events and the stickers. It was fun event and I watched a few talk that I wanted to watch after FOSDEM.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Definitely for meeting people. Also recorded some podcasts. Haven't attended any of the formal social events for years though. The event's grown too big for that sort of thing to be pleasant for me.
        oAlbe 6y ago
        Do you mind if I ask you what those podcasts are?
        ghaff 6y ago
        My current one is Innovate @Open. Most of the content I recorded at FOSDEM was for a series on whether open source was inevitable but I also did a couple standalone episodes.
softinio 6y ago
Great to see Matrix progress. Big fan of Matrix me for sure. Personal opinion as a frequent conference attendee, I do not like pre-recorded talks. I see why they are doing it, but I think its at the expense of conference experience. There will be less motivation to be there to watch when you can view online later.
bregma 6y ago
This won't help with the Friday Beer SIG.
zoobab 6y ago
Brussels Hackerspace (HSBXL) is using Matrix, but I am sorry to say, but the Element app sucks a bit, it tries to fetch a full history at first shot, nullifying my end user experience. I deinstalled the app and went back to IRC.
domano 6y ago
Last year i skipped FOSDEM after attending the previous 5 years. Every time i felt miserable on the day with less interesting talks - it is just too overcrowded and if you do not commit to a room for the whole day without leaving the room you are basically screwed. This is the only conference where i weigh my biological needs against talk topics - is topic XYZ worth suffering or should i go pee? I think limiting the number of participants would greatly benefit FOSDEM, even if it means that some people miss it.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  One possibility might be to encourage hybrid virtual/physical in future, rather than the online experience being very much 2nd class to the actual physical event.
- cbmuser 6y ago
  I agree. They should probably just start charging an entrance fee. It’s just way too crowded. Or find a larger venue.
  - domano 6y ago
    I think a fee would go against the spirit of the conference, but at least having free but limit tickets would be nice. I would love to go if i knew that i would not have to suffer 90% of the time. I would also not be angry if i did not get a ticket. Maybe they should randomize who gets one instead of a first come, first serve approach to make it fair.

213 points by neiljohnson 6y ago

We had a wonderful all-free-software NixCon 2020 a few months ago (with live talks via Jitsi for talker but not audience for better networking topology). All the code is in https://github.com/nixcon/nixcon-video-infra https://github.com/nixcon/nixcon-video-infra. It's probably too close to FOSDOM for the Element crew to hop on the Nix bandwagon for this project, alas, but I look forward to seeing the FOSDEM effort and and ours cross-pollinate in the future!

Arathorn 6y ago
very cool - thanks for the pointer :) There seems to be a lot of Nix / Matrix crossover, although for hosting the Matrix bits of FOSDEM we'll be using Debian this time (especially given the crazy tight timeline).
- Ericson2314 6y ago
  Indeed there is! Yes the crazy tight timeline indeed justifies it. We'll just get you all off Debian by next year's :).

Reventlov 6y ago

« folks can jump on board and participate via their own servers, clients, bridges, bots etc » Last time I checked, there was only one server really developped, not lagging behind, did that change recently ?

est31 6y ago
I think this refers to server instances instead of server implementations.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  It does - the point is that anyone can spin up their own Matrix server (or pick an existing one) and get involved; they don't have to use the fosdem.org one. Separately, in terms of implementations: Dendrite is usable these days, albeit beta: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/08/dendrite-is-entering-beta https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/08/dendrite-is-entering-beta, and meanwhile Synapse is stable. Conduit (https://conduit.rs https://conduit.rs) is making progress on federation (and works for simple use cases), and Construct (https://github.com/matrix-construct/construct https://github.com/matrix-construct/construct) exists too.
the_duke 6y ago
Sibling comments already mention that this is about custom instances and bridging. Matrix is an open network, you can participate with your own server. But also note that there is a very actively developed new (official) server implementation called Dendrite. [1] It's somewhere between alpha and beta. Dendrite also has some experimental support for peer to peer. [2] [1] https://github.com/matrix-org/dendrite https://github.com/matrix-org/dendrite [2] https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix

dexwell 6y ago

Matrix has such incredible potential, but is still missing a mainstream-focused IM client with a beautiful UI and appealing UX. If there are any Swift devs looking for a passion/side project like this, hit me up (link in bio)!

lifty 6y ago
Wouldn't https://nio.chat https://nio.chat qualify?
- dexwell 6y ago
  I’ve actually had a pleasant chat with the developer of Nio regarding working together, but we ended up deciding it’s better to work on separate projects. Nio is still in very early stages; the developer plans to refactor most of the app and couldn’t commit to a specific timeline or direction for it. On top of that, my vision for a client includes spinning up a (privacy-focused) business and later expanding to web, Android, and PCs.
mxuribe 6y ago
My favorite client is still Element, but I'll admit to not really being a "mainstream-focused" user. But, I have dabbled a little in Fluffy Chat [https://fluffychat.im https://fluffychat.im], and am encouraged that it might fit the need for many lay users...At least from what I've seen so far (it is still a work in progress, though quite usable).
Ericson2314 6y ago
You don't have to like it, but how is Element not mainstream-focused in its objectives?
- dexwell 6y ago
  Element looks and feels more like a replacement for Discord or Slack than WhatsApp or Messenger. My intention is to build an alternative to the latter two in terms of UI/UX. Something your grandma could use, like Signal, but decentralized and with features like quote replies and message editing. The goal would be to build a beautiful, private, secure, delightful instant messaging app that happens to run on Matrix, rather than building a Matrix client period. It’d still allow power users to do stuff like federation, but would by default abstract techie/Matrix concepts like homeservers, rooms, and encryption keys.

motiejus 6y ago

I have set up synapse myself a few months ago for my personal domain. I am a happy user so, have been bridging my different chat applications through it. There is one caveat: looks like "agreeing on how to do video" is not a Matrix standard; it's in the UI configuration or "widgets", which means only matrix/element combo is "properly" supported (with caveats). Has anyone had success running video calls over Matrix without Element? Is there any movement on the protocol side? Extending to this thread, will non-element applications have reasonable support for watching (video) fosdem?

pantalaimon 6y ago
> There is one caveat: looks like "agreeing on how to do video" is not a Matrix standard; it's in the UI configuration or "widgets", which means only matrix/element combo is "properly" supported (with caveats). Sounds like XMPP all over again.
- mromanuk 6y ago
  > Sounds like XMPP all over again. It's different, it's addressed here: https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matrix-and-xmpp%3F https://matrix.org/faq/#what-is-the-difference-between-matri... We think of Matrix and XMPP as being quite different; at its core Matrix can be thought of as an eventually consistent global JSON database with an HTTP API and pubsub semantics - whilst XMPP can be thought of as a message passing protocol. You can use them both to build chat systems; you can use them both to build pubsub systems; each comes with different tradeoffs. Matrix has a deliberately extensive 'kitchen sink' baseline of functionality; XMPP has a deliberately minimal baseline set of functionality. If XMPP does what you need it to do, then we're genuinely happy for you! Meanwhile, rather than competing, an XMPP Bridge like Skaverat's xmpptrix beta or jfred's matrix-xmpp-bridge or Matrix.org's own purple-matrix has potential to let both environments coexist and make the most of each other's benefits. The whole area of XMPP vs Matrix is quite subjective. Rather than fighting over which open interoperable communication standard works the best, we should just collaborate and bridge everything together. The more federation and interoperability the better.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago

sudhirkhanger 6y ago

Matrix is amazing but even as a programmer I have no idea what their Security and Privacy page means. If it is meant for masses then average Joe should be able to understand it.

capableweb 6y ago
Links to the pages you're referring to? I found their Privacy Policy surprisingly approachable (https://matrix.org/legal/privacy-notice https://matrix.org/legal/privacy-notice). Maybe because I've read through tons of policies before, but theirs seem to use very easy language, even for someone who's not a native English speaker. Could not find any page who's title is just "Security".
- sudhirkhanger 6y ago
  I meant the User name>Settings>Security & Privacy page. It can be found when you click on the username. Verifying devices on new login, keeping the recovery key safe, etc. will be difficult for users.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    Sounds like you're talking about a Matrix client, not Matrix itself. So I still don't know what you're talking about exactly, which client are you using?
    - sudhirkhanger 6y ago
      Sorry. Yes, I was talking about Element. https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element https://matrix.org/docs/projects/client/element

pjmlp 6y ago

I guess it will be first FOSDEM where everyone can fit on the rooms without missing the last 10 minutes of the previous talk.

pantalaimon 6y ago
I will never understand why they don't schedule the talks with gaps in between them.
- ghaff 6y ago
  There's a lot of pressure when scheduling events to try to maximize the number of sessions accepted and given. But, yeah, the last time I was at FOSDEM, I decided to pretty much hang out in specific devrooms and it was a much better experience than trying to run from session to session.
  - ognarb 6y ago
    Last year I attended FOSDEM not for the talks but for meeting people, the social events and the stickers. It was fun event and I watched a few talk that I wanted to watch after FOSDEM.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Definitely for meeting people. Also recorded some podcasts. Haven't attended any of the formal social events for years though. The event's grown too big for that sort of thing to be pleasant for me.
      - oAlbe 6y ago
        Do you mind if I ask you what those podcasts are?
        ghaff 6y ago
        My current one is Innovate @Open. Most of the content I recorded at FOSDEM was for a series on whether open source was inevitable but I also did a couple standalone episodes.

softinio 6y ago

Great to see Matrix progress. Big fan of Matrix me for sure. Personal opinion as a frequent conference attendee, I do not like pre-recorded talks. I see why they are doing it, but I think its at the expense of conference experience. There will be less motivation to be there to watch when you can view online later.

bregma 6y ago

This won't help with the Friday Beer SIG.

zoobab 6y ago

Brussels Hackerspace (HSBXL) is using Matrix, but I am sorry to say, but the Element app sucks a bit, it tries to fetch a full history at first shot, nullifying my end user experience. I deinstalled the app and went back to IRC.

domano 6y ago

Last year i skipped FOSDEM after attending the previous 5 years. Every time i felt miserable on the day with less interesting talks - it is just too overcrowded and if you do not commit to a room for the whole day without leaving the room you are basically screwed. This is the only conference where i weigh my biological needs against talk topics - is topic XYZ worth suffering or should i go pee? I think limiting the number of participants would greatly benefit FOSDEM, even if it means that some people miss it.

Arathorn 6y ago
One possibility might be to encourage hybrid virtual/physical in future, rather than the online experience being very much 2nd class to the actual physical event.
cbmuser 6y ago
I agree. They should probably just start charging an entrance fee. It’s just way too crowded. Or find a larger venue.
- domano 6y ago
  I think a fee would go against the spirit of the conference, but at least having free but limit tickets would be nice. I would love to go if i knew that i would not have to suffer 90% of the time. I would also not be angry if i did not get a ticket. Maybe they should randomize who gets one instead of a first come, first serve approach to make it fair.