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Apple has been in and out of the car game for a few years now, with executives coming and going. What I'm about to say will be as meaningful as this hear-say ar

Apple has been in and out of the car game for a few years now, with executives coming and going. What I'm about to say will be as meaningful as this hear-say article, but I feel that Apple management, and its shareholders, have no idea what it means to build a car. Things like this need 100% commitment from the management, Cook just doesn't seem like the guy to do it.

DamnYuppie 6y ago
I don't disagree with you assessment. I feel like he could be able to forge a solid partnership with Ford as the move into the EV space. Also with Ford's(F) market cap of $34.89B Apple could vary easily just buy them outright if things go well.
friedman23 6y ago
Apple could outright buy GM or Ford with cash.
- asadlionpk 6y ago
  But those would be terrible car companies to buy imo.
  - friedman23 6y ago
    why? they have the experience manufacturing huge numbers of vehicles and apple has the experience manufacturing products with good experience and build quality. Get gm to build the drivetrain and the body to apple spec, apple builds the interior themselves.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      They do have all the the ingredients, but they have a ton of financial baggage. Apple won't buy an automaker to manufacture cars, they'll contract it out for sure, the same way they do with the rest of their hardware.
    - ucm_edge 6y ago
      Why does Apple want the UAW contracts that come with any of the Big 3? Tesla showed the preferable model (from the corporate perspective). Buy the factory (NUMMI), hire some of the ex-UAW workers, and go from there. They don't need the whole hog. Plus if Apple really wants GM drivetrains, they can just buy crates them. GM's not going to turn down sales of any kind in this climate.
    - kansface 6y ago
      Electric cars are really simple to make (Apple doesn't need the help). GM is a legacy business with a legacy business model selling dozens of indistinguishable cars via multiple competing dealerships. Its both terrible for customers and not compatible with Apple. The reason GM is priced so low is because its half obligations and dead weight. I would not personally want to bail out the doubtlessly billions of dollars of unfunded pension obligations of GM as an investment (ie, why should apple pay for the people who last worked at GM a decade ago?). Cleaning up that mess would take serious, distracting, decade long effort if its even possible. Apple should poach the best employees from the industry, not the companies. They could probably straight up double everyone's salary and still pay less than SV engineers. I'd also look to buy out some manufacturers in the supply chain.
      - bonestamp2 6y ago
        > Electric cars are really simple to make Simple compared to what? They're way more complex than anything Apple makes now.
  - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    Do you have any reasons for this? Or thoughts on other car companies to buy. Apple does, after all, have enough cash to buy any car company besides Toyota (barely) and Tesla.
    - nickik 6y ago
      If you want to buy a company outright you need to pay more then the market cap.
- lkbm 6y ago
  Just did a quick check. Apple can buy GM AND Ford with cash, and still have nearly half their reserve left over. $191.83 billion cash on hand end of October[0], GM is 59B market cap[1], and Ford is $35B market cap. I guess there is a premium you pay when acquiring a public company, but still astounding numbers. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/29/apple-q4-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/29/apple-q4-cash-hoard-heres-ho... [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=GM+market+cap https://www.google.com/search?q=GM+market+cap [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+market+cap https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+market+cap
  - sixQuarks 6y ago
    You're not factoring in debt. GM and Ford have a combined $300 billion in debt.
thefounder 6y ago
They will obviously offshore the manufacturing to China so it won't really be that hard to pull it off.
silentsea90 6y ago
I think Apple is one company I would trust with entering other verticals especially in the hardware space. While phones!=cars, I wouldn't put it beyond their team to deliver on this.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  > I wouldn't put it beyond their team to deliver on this. Or beyond their hundreds of billions of dollars in cash to hire a team needed to deliver on this.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Their cash on hand is higher than the market cap of any automaker other than Toyota, Tesla, and Volkswagen. They spent about 3/4 the market cap of Mazda to buy Beats.
ghaff 6y ago
It seems like such an utterly different business. It seems as if there are so many more natural extensions in consumer hardware and software tech (as well as many not yet imagined). And I agree with your basic point that this is something that they'd almost have to set up as a separate company. And then you have to ask: "Does a well-funded EV startup sound like a smart business plan?" Maybe it does but it wouldn't be my first choice.
buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
> but I feel that Apple management, and its shareholders, have no idea what it means to build a car I feel like people pretend that building a car is way harder than it actually is in 2020. All the components to build a car are readily available. A person can buy the parts on their own and put them together in their garage. It isn't like they have to go get a pick axe and start mining ore to create everything from scratch. Apple just needs to buy the components that already work, and then do what they do best and perfect that parts that haven't been perfected. In this case, the battery, the motor, the onboard computer, and the software. And based off what Apple has built in the past, these are the things that Apple would be REALLY good at. It isn't like they have to invent tires and drive shafts. I know I undersold the difficulty of making a car in this comment, but come one, Apple is 87 times more valuable than Ford. They have enough cash on hand to buy Ford 5 times. Money might not solve all problems, but it really really helps.
- davidrm 6y ago
  I work for a tier 1 EV supplier, I've spent 2 months in Hyundai's Namyang R&D center, several weeks at Aston Martin's facilities, and some others, you undersold it by A LOT. Ford, GM and other veterans on the industry have long lost their original spirit, just like any other company, but what they have is established processes and supply chain management, and that takes decades to do right. You can ship a 1st gen iPhone without a working camera, vehicle recalls hit you much harder.
  - oblio 6y ago
    And you need to supply parts for vehicles for almost a decade after the vehicle is no longer sold. At least in Europe.
  - ksec 6y ago
    >but what they have is established processes and supply chain management, and that takes decades to do right. From my long time reading on HN, 99.99% of HN have absolutely zero visibility and knowledge on anything with Supply Chain. I mean even the Web Industry and Programmers all jumped on to Cloud computing they dont have have the concept of "lead time" anymore.
wlesieutre 6y ago
The news about it recently was shuffling it back under their AI executive: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/12/08/giannandrea-titan https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/12/08/giannandrea-tit... As Gruber quipped - “This car is as smart as Siri” sounds like a threat, not a selling point.
amelius 6y ago
> Things like this need 100% commitment from the management Then how can Elon Musk pull it off with only 50%?
- davidrm 6y ago
  You could put me in charge and assuming I really go 100%, I doubt I'd pull it off. Point is, it also takes someone who really wants to and can do it. Also, I'm just a guy on the internet, I really hope Cook sees this and decides to spite me and build an awesome car, I'm also a dreamer.
- bonestamp2 6y ago
  He sleeps at the factory.
randomsearch 6y ago
Maybe. Supply chains are his thing, though, so that works in his favour.
klmadfejno 6y ago
One could look to Apple's tv show catalogue as an example of them entering a new industry without much experience. They don't really have expertise in it, and it's probably suffering as a result. But then, they also have a ton of money to burn on it, so it's not without its merits. I think this will be very hard for them to do, and I think they'll look like they're making dumb mistakes for a while. But if they really want to go this way, they'll probably succeed in some form.
moogleii 6y ago
That's one way of interpreting it. I would venture that their public dabbling is indicative that that they do understand what it means to build a car, in the sense that car manufacturing shouldn't be underestimated. Going all-in on something like this when you're not ready is just a waste of capital and nobody wants to be the next Fisker. Historically speaking, Apple has usually made sure all their ducks are in a row before launching something, whether it's going into processor design, audio, or launching a credit card. There's quite a bit of chess pieces that were put into position first, and a lot of that was done via hiring, acquisitions, and partnerships. That should demonstrate that Apple has gotten into other industries regardless of how much management or shareholders previously understood the problem. In other words, they seem to understand when they don't understand. With BMW declining to be a partner all those years ago (allegedly), it makes sense to me that they would put their plans on the back burner. I'm still skeptical that they can (or want to) do this without a major manufacturing partner, but we'll see. Or, given how conservative they seem to be with their capital, maybe we never will. The AirPods Max project allegedly started 4 years ago, and those are just headphones.
_ph_ 6y ago
I think most of all this shows how serious they are about the project that they keep pushing it despite potential setbacks. I don't think it says anything about the ability to build "a car" but rather, that they are still experimenting with finding the right product. Apple doesn't release a product until they think it is "right".

DamnYuppie 6y ago

I don't disagree with you assessment. I feel like he could be able to forge a solid partnership with Ford as the move into the EV space. Also with Ford's(F) market cap of $34.89B Apple could vary easily just buy them outright if things go well.

friedman23 6y ago

Apple could outright buy GM or Ford with cash.

asadlionpk 6y ago
But those would be terrible car companies to buy imo.
- friedman23 6y ago
  why? they have the experience manufacturing huge numbers of vehicles and apple has the experience manufacturing products with good experience and build quality. Get gm to build the drivetrain and the body to apple spec, apple builds the interior themselves.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    They do have all the the ingredients, but they have a ton of financial baggage. Apple won't buy an automaker to manufacture cars, they'll contract it out for sure, the same way they do with the rest of their hardware.
  - ucm_edge 6y ago
    Why does Apple want the UAW contracts that come with any of the Big 3? Tesla showed the preferable model (from the corporate perspective). Buy the factory (NUMMI), hire some of the ex-UAW workers, and go from there. They don't need the whole hog. Plus if Apple really wants GM drivetrains, they can just buy crates them. GM's not going to turn down sales of any kind in this climate.
  - kansface 6y ago
    Electric cars are really simple to make (Apple doesn't need the help). GM is a legacy business with a legacy business model selling dozens of indistinguishable cars via multiple competing dealerships. Its both terrible for customers and not compatible with Apple. The reason GM is priced so low is because its half obligations and dead weight. I would not personally want to bail out the doubtlessly billions of dollars of unfunded pension obligations of GM as an investment (ie, why should apple pay for the people who last worked at GM a decade ago?). Cleaning up that mess would take serious, distracting, decade long effort if its even possible. Apple should poach the best employees from the industry, not the companies. They could probably straight up double everyone's salary and still pay less than SV engineers. I'd also look to buy out some manufacturers in the supply chain.
    - bonestamp2 6y ago
      > Electric cars are really simple to make Simple compared to what? They're way more complex than anything Apple makes now.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  Do you have any reasons for this? Or thoughts on other car companies to buy. Apple does, after all, have enough cash to buy any car company besides Toyota (barely) and Tesla.
  - nickik 6y ago
    If you want to buy a company outright you need to pay more then the market cap.
lkbm 6y ago
Just did a quick check. Apple can buy GM AND Ford with cash, and still have nearly half their reserve left over. $191.83 billion cash on hand end of October[0], GM is 59B market cap[1], and Ford is $35B market cap. I guess there is a premium you pay when acquiring a public company, but still astounding numbers. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/29/apple-q4-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/29/apple-q4-cash-hoard-heres-ho... [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=GM+market+cap https://www.google.com/search?q=GM+market+cap [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+market+cap https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+market+cap
- sixQuarks 6y ago
  You're not factoring in debt. GM and Ford have a combined $300 billion in debt.

thefounder 6y ago

They will obviously offshore the manufacturing to China so it won't really be that hard to pull it off.

silentsea90 6y ago

I think Apple is one company I would trust with entering other verticals especially in the hardware space. While phones!=cars, I wouldn't put it beyond their team to deliver on this.

buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
> I wouldn't put it beyond their team to deliver on this. Or beyond their hundreds of billions of dollars in cash to hire a team needed to deliver on this.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Their cash on hand is higher than the market cap of any automaker other than Toyota, Tesla, and Volkswagen. They spent about 3/4 the market cap of Mazda to buy Beats.

ghaff 6y ago

It seems like such an utterly different business. It seems as if there are so many more natural extensions in consumer hardware and software tech (as well as many not yet imagined). And I agree with your basic point that this is something that they'd almost have to set up as a separate company. And then you have to ask: "Does a well-funded EV startup sound like a smart business plan?" Maybe it does but it wouldn't be my first choice.

buzzerbetrayed 6y ago

> but I feel that Apple management, and its shareholders, have no idea what it means to build a car I feel like people pretend that building a car is way harder than it actually is in 2020. All the components to build a car are readily available. A person can buy the parts on their own and put them together in their garage. It isn't like they have to go get a pick axe and start mining ore to create everything from scratch. Apple just needs to buy the components that already work, and then do what they do best and perfect that parts that haven't been perfected. In this case, the battery, the motor, the onboard computer, and the software. And based off what Apple has built in the past, these are the things that Apple would be REALLY good at. It isn't like they have to invent tires and drive shafts. I know I undersold the difficulty of making a car in this comment, but come one, Apple is 87 times more valuable than Ford. They have enough cash on hand to buy Ford 5 times. Money might not solve all problems, but it really really helps.

davidrm 6y ago
I work for a tier 1 EV supplier, I've spent 2 months in Hyundai's Namyang R&D center, several weeks at Aston Martin's facilities, and some others, you undersold it by A LOT. Ford, GM and other veterans on the industry have long lost their original spirit, just like any other company, but what they have is established processes and supply chain management, and that takes decades to do right. You can ship a 1st gen iPhone without a working camera, vehicle recalls hit you much harder.
- oblio 6y ago
  And you need to supply parts for vehicles for almost a decade after the vehicle is no longer sold. At least in Europe.
- ksec 6y ago
  >but what they have is established processes and supply chain management, and that takes decades to do right. From my long time reading on HN, 99.99% of HN have absolutely zero visibility and knowledge on anything with Supply Chain. I mean even the Web Industry and Programmers all jumped on to Cloud computing they dont have have the concept of "lead time" anymore.

wlesieutre 6y ago

The news about it recently was shuffling it back under their AI executive: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/12/08/giannandrea-titan https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/12/08/giannandrea-tit... As Gruber quipped - “This car is as smart as Siri” sounds like a threat, not a selling point.

amelius 6y ago

> Things like this need 100% commitment from the management Then how can Elon Musk pull it off with only 50%?

davidrm 6y ago
You could put me in charge and assuming I really go 100%, I doubt I'd pull it off. Point is, it also takes someone who really wants to and can do it. Also, I'm just a guy on the internet, I really hope Cook sees this and decides to spite me and build an awesome car, I'm also a dreamer.
bonestamp2 6y ago
He sleeps at the factory.

randomsearch 6y ago

Maybe. Supply chains are his thing, though, so that works in his favour.

klmadfejno 6y ago

One could look to Apple's tv show catalogue as an example of them entering a new industry without much experience. They don't really have expertise in it, and it's probably suffering as a result. But then, they also have a ton of money to burn on it, so it's not without its merits. I think this will be very hard for them to do, and I think they'll look like they're making dumb mistakes for a while. But if they really want to go this way, they'll probably succeed in some form.

moogleii 6y ago

That's one way of interpreting it. I would venture that their public dabbling is indicative that that they do understand what it means to build a car, in the sense that car manufacturing shouldn't be underestimated. Going all-in on something like this when you're not ready is just a waste of capital and nobody wants to be the next Fisker. Historically speaking, Apple has usually made sure all their ducks are in a row before launching something, whether it's going into processor design, audio, or launching a credit card. There's quite a bit of chess pieces that were put into position first, and a lot of that was done via hiring, acquisitions, and partnerships. That should demonstrate that Apple has gotten into other industries regardless of how much management or shareholders previously understood the problem. In other words, they seem to understand when they don't understand. With BMW declining to be a partner all those years ago (allegedly), it makes sense to me that they would put their plans on the back burner. I'm still skeptical that they can (or want to) do this without a major manufacturing partner, but we'll see. Or, given how conservative they seem to be with their capital, maybe we never will. The AirPods Max project allegedly started 4 years ago, and those are just headphones.

_ph_ 6y ago

I think most of all this shows how serious they are about the project that they keep pushing it despite potential setbacks. I don't think it says anything about the ability to build "a car" but rather, that they are still experimenting with finding the right product. Apple doesn't release a product until they think it is "right".