5 ms·

A conversation about open source licenses

73 points by ashchristopher 15y ago

callmeed 15y ago
It's hard to know anyone's actual intentions from the outside, but I think Zed has a point. It's interesting that Ryan works for Joyent, who is doing a major push into Node.js services–including "Commercial Node.js distribution" ... I'm not a license expert but it seems that MIT would be better for that.
stock_toaster 15y ago
I assume this is somehow related the joyent's assumption of copyright on the node code (stewardship). Is there any background on why this was posted in a gist (and why it was submitted to HN)?
- callmeed 15y ago
  >> Is there any background on why this was posted in a gist http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc
  - stock_toaster 15y ago
    Thanks!
reinhardt 15y ago
Can someone explain what was the fuss about ? So Zed was cool to relicense it thinking it was about some project X and got pissed off when he learned it was going to be (also) used in project Y ? WTF ?!
- asomiv 15y ago
  It looks like Zed is pissed about Ryan trying to hide his intentions to profit from Zed's work through Node.js (Node.js has commercial activities attached to it). Zed is not pissed about whether or not Ryan actually profits from it, only the way he appears to be doing it in a sneaky way.
  - blago 15y ago
    Node.js had no comercial activities in Nov 2009. In fact, this exchange happened right after JSConf 2009 which is when the world at large learned about node.
piotrSikora 15y ago
http-parser is based on parsers from mongrel and/or nginx (at least in parts), yet the LICENSE file says Joyent, Inc. and other Node contributors.... No mention of the original copyright holders (Zed Shaw and/or Igor Sysoev) tsk tsk
- bnoordhuis 15y ago
  There isn't a shred of the original mongrel parser left. I'm not 100% sure but http-parser looks more like it's inspired by nginx than that it actually contains nginx code. Disclosure: I know both http-parser and nginx fairly well. I'm one of the 'other Node contributors'. :-)
  - piotrSikora 15y ago
    But it was Ryan who said that it does: http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69620659650699264 http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69620659650699264
    - notJim 15y ago
      If you read to the bottom of the email chain here: http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69624489893314560 http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69624489893314560, ry says he rewrote the parser.
      - piotrSikora 15y ago
        You've missed the fact that this e-mail is from 2009 and tweet is from yesterday. Surely a lot changed in the meantime. Anyway, Igor Sysoev was just added to the LICENSE file, so EOT.
- orls 15y ago
  The NGINX contribution has been noted now; https://github.com/ry/http-parser/commit/8dabce6ec7142319bc5c883ff53bf7302f0d83ce https://github.com/ry/http-parser/commit/8dabce6ec7142319bc5...
chapel 15y ago
It is sad how this has been misrepresented. First of all, this was an email conversation between Ryan Dahl and Zed Shaw. That you know. What you probably don't know is that Ryan first posted this tweet [0] about rewriting Zed's http parser. Zed then responded twice [1] & [2], vehemently. Ryan then responded with a single "?" to Zed's outbursts. That is when Zed said this: "@ryah And don't make me bust out the fucking email you sent me trying to trick me into giving you a MIT license. I swear I'll trash you." [3] Then shortly after another attack [4]. Ryan then again responded somewhat confused: "@zedshaw http-parser uses nginx's url parser, and your external c api (it's a good api) but it's not a modified ver. of mongrel's http11. ??" [5] After that he offered up the above link with the email conversation Zed alluded to [6]. If you know anything about the http parser, you would know that it was written by Ryan and is no longer an issue. That is why the license was changed, why give attribution to Zed if he didn't write anything? Not to mention after the above outburst. The title of this post is wrong, misleading, and linkbait. [0]: https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69557901546631168 https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69557901546631168 [1]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69583774119239681 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69583774119239681 [2]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584110305284097 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584110305284097 [3]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584284339544064 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584284339544064 [4]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69618172252274688 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69618172252274688 [5]: http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69620659650699264 http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69620659650699264 [6]: http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69624489893314560 http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69624489893314560
- piotrSikora 15y ago
  http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc is far more readable ;) But back on topic... Even if Ryan really rewritten all of the original mongrel's code by hand, then there is still issue with nginx-based portions. Why there is no attribution to Igor Sysoev?
  - chapel 15y ago
    Yeah, but what is the fun in that? If it was rewritten, with all new code, why would there need to be attribution?
tzs 15y ago
I haven't done much open source (all I've got out there is a thing to suck a small newsfeed from an NNTP server, a simple NNTP cache, three Warhammer Online add-ons, and a Talisman calculator for Wahammer Online), as my job at a mostly closed source company raises enough challenges to occupy all of the time I have for programming. However, Zed Shaw really tempts me to make time to get involved in open source, especially in projects that will have some tangential connection to him. That's because I haven't been in a really good flame war with a worthy opponent since the old usenet days. From what I've read, it seems he would be more than worthy and not too hard to provoke. :-)
- petercooper 15y ago
  That's because I haven't been in a really good flame war with a worthy opponent since the old usenet days. That's easily the most bizarre motivation I've heard to get into open source(!) :-)
  - stcredzero 15y ago
    Yes, we all know that Open Source is the place to be to get away from those pesky flamewars.
- zedshaw 15y ago
  Oh you're one of those guys who thinks that you're somehow trolling by just being a dipshit. As if my reaction to your stupidity is somehow causing me great pain, when the truth is it's just damn funny to tell someone who insults me to suck a goat cock and then watch them flail at words. Just being wrong and giggling when people correct you is level 0 trolling. If you really want to troll you gotta step up your game and do something like any of these: http://mulletdb.com/ http://mulletdb.com/ http://livingdouchebag.com/ http://livingdouchebag.com/ http://programming-motherfucker.com/ http://programming-motherfucker.com/ If you can pull off projects like that, and open source them, then I'll be one of your fans. If all you do is try to provoke me, then I'll just end up making you look like the dumbass you actually are. (So something like that is what you want? :-) EDIT: mulletdb.com is better.
tmcw 15y ago
This "Zed" guy has a "oh, cool" to "I WILL FIGHT YOU" transition time of about five minutes. It's sad that his short temper colors his excellent work so much. [1] Especially when this started with a compliment [0]... [0]: https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69554939323629568 https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69554939323629568 [1]: Oh crap, now Zed Shaw's gonna challenge me to a duel.
swanson 15y ago
Seems like Ryan re-opened the can of worms by tweeting about Ragel with a subtle jab at Zed ("Ragel was hindering. Needs a better 'when' operator."). It sounds like Ryan is saying that he re-wrote it because of technical reasons, when from the email exchange, it is really because of licensing. That's kind of sketchy to me. Right or wrong, I think that if node was using mongrel/nginx stuff at any point they should still give some attribution. It certainly seems like the code was helpful in getting the project started regardless of the fact that all the code has been rewritten in later releases.
spoondan 15y ago
This feels like a simple misunderstanding. I think Ryan just assumed that Zed knew they were already talking about Node.js. With that assumption in mind, when Ryan wrote, "this is included in some of my other projects," he really meant, "this is also included in some of my other projects." That seems a more likely interpretation than Ryan trying to trick Zed into re-licensing the code.

It's hard to know anyone's actual intentions from the outside, but I think Zed has a point. It's interesting that Ryan works for Joyent, who is doing a major push into Node.js services–including "Commercial Node.js distribution" ... I'm not a license expert but it seems that MIT would be better for that.

stock_toaster 15y ago

I assume this is somehow related the joyent's assumption of copyright on the node code (stewardship). Is there any background on why this was posted in a gist (and why it was submitted to HN)?

callmeed 15y ago
>> Is there any background on why this was posted in a gist http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc
- stock_toaster 15y ago
  Thanks!

reinhardt 15y ago

Can someone explain what was the fuss about ? So Zed was cool to relicense it thinking it was about some project X and got pissed off when he learned it was going to be (also) used in project Y ? WTF ?!

asomiv 15y ago
It looks like Zed is pissed about Ryan trying to hide his intentions to profit from Zed's work through Node.js (Node.js has commercial activities attached to it). Zed is not pissed about whether or not Ryan actually profits from it, only the way he appears to be doing it in a sneaky way.
- blago 15y ago
  Node.js had no comercial activities in Nov 2009. In fact, this exchange happened right after JSConf 2009 which is when the world at large learned about node.

piotrSikora 15y ago

http-parser is based on parsers from mongrel and/or nginx (at least in parts), yet the LICENSE file says Joyent, Inc. and other Node contributors.... No mention of the original copyright holders (Zed Shaw and/or Igor Sysoev) tsk tsk

bnoordhuis 15y ago
There isn't a shred of the original mongrel parser left. I'm not 100% sure but http-parser looks more like it's inspired by nginx than that it actually contains nginx code. Disclosure: I know both http-parser and nginx fairly well. I'm one of the 'other Node contributors'. :-)
- piotrSikora 15y ago
  But it was Ryan who said that it does: http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69620659650699264 http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69620659650699264
  - notJim 15y ago
    If you read to the bottom of the email chain here: http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69624489893314560 http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/69624489893314560, ry says he rewrote the parser.
    - piotrSikora 15y ago
      You've missed the fact that this e-mail is from 2009 and tweet is from yesterday. Surely a lot changed in the meantime. Anyway, Igor Sysoev was just added to the LICENSE file, so EOT.
orls 15y ago
The NGINX contribution has been noted now; https://github.com/ry/http-parser/commit/8dabce6ec7142319bc5c883ff53bf7302f0d83ce https://github.com/ry/http-parser/commit/8dabce6ec7142319bc5...

chapel 15y ago

It is sad how this has been misrepresented. First of all, this was an email conversation between Ryan Dahl and Zed Shaw. That you know. What you probably don't know is that Ryan first posted this tweet [0] about rewriting Zed's http parser. Zed then responded twice [1] & [2], vehemently. Ryan then responded with a single "?" to Zed's outbursts. That is when Zed said this: "@ryah And don't make me bust out the fucking email you sent me trying to trick me into giving you a MIT license. I swear I'll trash you." [3] Then shortly after another attack [4]. Ryan then again responded somewhat confused: "@zedshaw http-parser uses nginx's url parser, and your external c api (it's a good api) but it's not a modified ver. of mongrel's http11. ??" [5] After that he offered up the above link with the email conversation Zed alluded to [6]. If you know anything about the http parser, you would know that it was written by Ryan and is no longer an issue. That is why the license was changed, why give attribution to Zed if he didn't write anything? Not to mention after the above outburst. The title of this post is wrong, misleading, and linkbait. [0]: https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69557901546631168 https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69557901546631168 [1]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69583774119239681 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69583774119239681 [2]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584110305284097 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584110305284097 [3]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584284339544064 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69584284339544064 [4]: http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69618172252274688 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/69618172252274688 [5]: http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69620659650699264 http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69620659650699264 [6]: http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69624489893314560 http://twitter.com/ryah/status/69624489893314560

piotrSikora 15y ago
http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc http://bettween.com/ryah/zedshaw/May-07-2011/May-15-2011/asc is far more readable ;) But back on topic... Even if Ryan really rewritten all of the original mongrel's code by hand, then there is still issue with nginx-based portions. Why there is no attribution to Igor Sysoev?
- chapel 15y ago
  Yeah, but what is the fun in that? If it was rewritten, with all new code, why would there need to be attribution?

tzs 15y ago

I haven't done much open source (all I've got out there is a thing to suck a small newsfeed from an NNTP server, a simple NNTP cache, three Warhammer Online add-ons, and a Talisman calculator for Wahammer Online), as my job at a mostly closed source company raises enough challenges to occupy all of the time I have for programming. However, Zed Shaw really tempts me to make time to get involved in open source, especially in projects that will have some tangential connection to him. That's because I haven't been in a really good flame war with a worthy opponent since the old usenet days. From what I've read, it seems he would be more than worthy and not too hard to provoke. :-)

petercooper 15y ago
That's because I haven't been in a really good flame war with a worthy opponent since the old usenet days. That's easily the most bizarre motivation I've heard to get into open source(!) :-)
- stcredzero 15y ago
  Yes, we all know that Open Source is the place to be to get away from those pesky flamewars.
zedshaw 15y ago
Oh you're one of those guys who thinks that you're somehow trolling by just being a dipshit. As if my reaction to your stupidity is somehow causing me great pain, when the truth is it's just damn funny to tell someone who insults me to suck a goat cock and then watch them flail at words. Just being wrong and giggling when people correct you is level 0 trolling. If you really want to troll you gotta step up your game and do something like any of these: http://mulletdb.com/ http://mulletdb.com/ http://livingdouchebag.com/ http://livingdouchebag.com/ http://programming-motherfucker.com/ http://programming-motherfucker.com/ If you can pull off projects like that, and open source them, then I'll be one of your fans. If all you do is try to provoke me, then I'll just end up making you look like the dumbass you actually are. (So something like that is what you want? :-) EDIT: mulletdb.com is better.

tmcw 15y ago

This "Zed" guy has a "oh, cool" to "I WILL FIGHT YOU" transition time of about five minutes. It's sad that his short temper colors his excellent work so much. [1] Especially when this started with a compliment [0]... [0]: https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69554939323629568 https://twitter.com/ryah/status/69554939323629568 [1]: Oh crap, now Zed Shaw's gonna challenge me to a duel.

swanson 15y ago

Seems like Ryan re-opened the can of worms by tweeting about Ragel with a subtle jab at Zed ("Ragel was hindering. Needs a better 'when' operator."). It sounds like Ryan is saying that he re-wrote it because of technical reasons, when from the email exchange, it is really because of licensing. That's kind of sketchy to me. Right or wrong, I think that if node was using mongrel/nginx stuff at any point they should still give some attribution. It certainly seems like the code was helpful in getting the project started regardless of the fact that all the code has been rewritten in later releases.

spoondan 15y ago

This feels like a simple misunderstanding. I think Ryan just assumed that Zed knew they were already talking about Node.js. With that assumption in mind, when Ryan wrote, "this is included in some of my other projects," he really meant, "this is also included in some of my other projects." That seems a more likely interpretation than Ryan trying to trick Zed into re-licensing the code.