5 ms·

But.... you have to work at Facebook.

by traskjd 6y ago

speedgoose 6y ago
True but everyone has a price, and this is far above mine.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Indeed. https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig comes to mind
- skrtskrt 6y ago
  I guess everyone's different but I feel like a good devs in America can make a damn good living without working for something evil. You won't be a millionaire in 5 years, but you will be just fine. How much do you really need?
  - bradlys 6y ago
    It really depends on where you live. If you want to own a home, Facebook and similar are really your only options for the Bay Area. Assuming you also want a nice commute, decent schools, etc. stuff that most professionals work towards.
    - taylodl 6y ago
      The reason commonly given for living in the Bay Area is all the jobs available but you're pointing out that's not actually the case because if you want to live well in the Bay Area then you have few employment options. Is that the reality?
      - bradlys 6y ago
        > Is that the reality? Certainly is for me. The $170k/yr startup salary I get is certainly not enough to afford jack shit around here. Even an extra $50k/yr wouldn't do anything to alter my lifestyle. I couldn't get any kind of home around here with that and I'd still be very uncomfortable renting a home on that income - as it'd be more than a third of my take home pay (lose your job? You better have a very large emergency buffer - unemployment won't even pay a third of your monthly rent). The engineers I know who stay around here are A) wealthy (bought home long before average price was past $1m or inherited one), B) rent, dual engineer income, and enjoy the renter lifestyle, C) Work at FAANG and/or have a spouse who does and make big fucking $$$$ D) Going to move away, no plans to stay permanently. There are no young people (<35) moving here, working for no-name companies, and buying homes after saving for a down payment after a few years. Almost all young people I know who do such things have A) had a startup IPO or B) work at FAANG. Certainly can't make it here on a single startup salary - not even in the faintest. I'm proof of that. The reason people move here is because there's a chance (insert dumb and dumber reference) to strike rich. There's also way more jobs here than anywhere else in the country and that's why I moved here. I couldn't get a job anywhere else but I somehow managed to get one here four times in a row now.
        skrtskrt 6y ago
        I know plenty of people doing just fine in SF on much less than that 170k. Yes, they rent. But "buying homes after saving for a down payment after a few years" is not a reality in any major metro area at the moment, unless you're fine with small, old, and far out in the suburbs.
        bradlys 6y ago
        > Yes, they rent. But "buying homes after saving for a down payment after a few years" is not a reality in any major metro area at the moment, unless you're fine with small, old, and far out in the suburbs. Isn't true for people I know in other major cities that are working professionals. Most peers I have in their 30's are buying homes in other major cities - if they are engineers or have a spouse who is an engineer. I'm not talking about people who work retail. I'm talking specifically about engineers. Engineers in most major cities in the US can afford to buy a home if they have a spouse who works some kind of okay job. This just isn't true in the bay area.
        skrtskrt 6y ago
        I see - so you're saying that for someone: * in their 30s - so, say 10 years of engineer-but-not-FAANG salary * with a spouse who also has a white collar job & about 10 years of savings they would not have $200k to put down 20% towards a $1M place? Not that putting down 20% is even common anymore, average is ~9%. I guess I could believe it given how little housing there is in SF - but wow.
        bradlys 6y ago
        Depends on the people. $180k + $80k is only $260k. It's enough to get a house at $1m but you'll be somewhat house poor. You have to assume they haven't been saving at $180+$80k that entire time unless you're assuming they're late 30's. 9% down isn't common for Bay Area btw. 30-45% of all homes are bought with cash (higher value the property - higher the all cash offer %). Do you think those numbers are like that in other parts of the country? Do you think you can get by with <10% down for a jumbo loan? The people I know who bought here have either paid all cash or had to put down even more than 20%. We haven't even discussed what a $1m home gets you here. I wouldn't buy a $1m home here. You will not get a nice home or neighborhood. Minimum $1.5m to break into the decent neighborhoods. Want something resembling what the rest of the professional middle class has? At least $2m+.
    - pc86 6y ago
      And yet I get pilloried when I dare say that the Bay Area is a bad place to live. The median software dev salary for the US is under $110k. So half the people in the country make less than that, yet even in places with low salaries nationally software developers are well-paid and have no trouble affording housing and growing wealth.
      - bradlys 6y ago
        You’re probably talking to a lot of rich dudes. That’s why they get on your case. If you’re rich, it’s probably better than all those other places. But, again, need to be rich. And it takes a lot to get there for a person who grew up in a lower socioeconomic class. You’ll spend most of your life trying to get there and stay rather than enjoying the riches. (At least, that’s my experience so far!)
echelon 6y ago
I wonder what would happen if Tim Cook said they were no longer going to hire Facebook engineers as a matter of principle. They could say something like, "if you're willing to sacrifice your ethics to work for a company that spies on people, you can't be trusted with our product." Not a lifetime ban, but perhaps a 5 year ban from working at Apple after having had a tenure at Facebook. Maybe they could waive the ban for candidates that publicly renounced Facebook's practices. It'll never happen, but if it did I imagine the effects on Facebook hiring and retention would be chilling. Sort of a reverse Brian Armstrong.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  But what of the chilling effects on Apple’s hiring? Do we really want to start turf wars where companies can essentially reenact anti-poaching laws and the associated depression in mobility but spin it as being principled?
  - echelon 6y ago
    I'd worry more about wages dropping due to WFH and creation of a "pay-adjusted" distributed workforce. I'd also worry about the monopolistic behavior of the incumbents making it harder for challengers to succeed, creating less diversity in work or employment. Principled stands won't happen. Profits matter, not morals or ethics. It's better for them to maximize the workforce pool and keep them fungible.
- etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
  I like this. I wonder if this is actually legal, though.
- tjpnz 6y ago
  >Not a lifetime ban, but perhaps a 5 year ban from working at Apple after having had a tenure at Facebook. Japan has something similar for Yakuza members who are defined as "anti social forces" with a cooling off period of 7 years. FWIW I find the idea when applied to Facebook rather appealing.
q-base 6y ago
Totally agree. I wonder if that is part of the reason for the high compensation numbers. I do not know how widespread "counter Facebook ethics" are among Engineers. I could imagine them being higher that elsewhere as it is a somewhat high-compensation segment, even outside of these monstrous FB-numbers.
38932ur98u 6y ago
How do we solve this problem? How do we prevent, or at least discourage, people from turning a blind eye to the ethical implications of working in a dystopia accelerator company like FB when job options elsewhere are plentiful?

But.... you have to work at Facebook.

speedgoose 6y ago

True but everyone has a price, and this is far above mine.

bawolff 6y ago
Indeed. https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig https://youtu.be/-DiBc1vkTig comes to mind
skrtskrt 6y ago
I guess everyone's different but I feel like a good devs in America can make a damn good living without working for something evil. You won't be a millionaire in 5 years, but you will be just fine. How much do you really need?
- bradlys 6y ago
  It really depends on where you live. If you want to own a home, Facebook and similar are really your only options for the Bay Area. Assuming you also want a nice commute, decent schools, etc. stuff that most professionals work towards.
  - taylodl 6y ago
    The reason commonly given for living in the Bay Area is all the jobs available but you're pointing out that's not actually the case because if you want to live well in the Bay Area then you have few employment options. Is that the reality?
    - bradlys 6y ago
      > Is that the reality? Certainly is for me. The $170k/yr startup salary I get is certainly not enough to afford jack shit around here. Even an extra $50k/yr wouldn't do anything to alter my lifestyle. I couldn't get any kind of home around here with that and I'd still be very uncomfortable renting a home on that income - as it'd be more than a third of my take home pay (lose your job? You better have a very large emergency buffer - unemployment won't even pay a third of your monthly rent). The engineers I know who stay around here are A) wealthy (bought home long before average price was past $1m or inherited one), B) rent, dual engineer income, and enjoy the renter lifestyle, C) Work at FAANG and/or have a spouse who does and make big fucking $$$$ D) Going to move away, no plans to stay permanently. There are no young people (<35) moving here, working for no-name companies, and buying homes after saving for a down payment after a few years. Almost all young people I know who do such things have A) had a startup IPO or B) work at FAANG. Certainly can't make it here on a single startup salary - not even in the faintest. I'm proof of that. The reason people move here is because there's a chance (insert dumb and dumber reference) to strike rich. There's also way more jobs here than anywhere else in the country and that's why I moved here. I couldn't get a job anywhere else but I somehow managed to get one here four times in a row now.
      - skrtskrt 6y ago
        I know plenty of people doing just fine in SF on much less than that 170k. Yes, they rent. But "buying homes after saving for a down payment after a few years" is not a reality in any major metro area at the moment, unless you're fine with small, old, and far out in the suburbs.
        bradlys 6y ago
        > Yes, they rent. But "buying homes after saving for a down payment after a few years" is not a reality in any major metro area at the moment, unless you're fine with small, old, and far out in the suburbs. Isn't true for people I know in other major cities that are working professionals. Most peers I have in their 30's are buying homes in other major cities - if they are engineers or have a spouse who is an engineer. I'm not talking about people who work retail. I'm talking specifically about engineers. Engineers in most major cities in the US can afford to buy a home if they have a spouse who works some kind of okay job. This just isn't true in the bay area.
        skrtskrt 6y ago
        I see - so you're saying that for someone: * in their 30s - so, say 10 years of engineer-but-not-FAANG salary * with a spouse who also has a white collar job & about 10 years of savings they would not have $200k to put down 20% towards a $1M place? Not that putting down 20% is even common anymore, average is ~9%. I guess I could believe it given how little housing there is in SF - but wow.
        bradlys 6y ago
        Depends on the people. $180k + $80k is only $260k. It's enough to get a house at $1m but you'll be somewhat house poor. You have to assume they haven't been saving at $180+$80k that entire time unless you're assuming they're late 30's. 9% down isn't common for Bay Area btw. 30-45% of all homes are bought with cash (higher value the property - higher the all cash offer %). Do you think those numbers are like that in other parts of the country? Do you think you can get by with <10% down for a jumbo loan? The people I know who bought here have either paid all cash or had to put down even more than 20%. We haven't even discussed what a $1m home gets you here. I wouldn't buy a $1m home here. You will not get a nice home or neighborhood. Minimum $1.5m to break into the decent neighborhoods. Want something resembling what the rest of the professional middle class has? At least $2m+.
  - pc86 6y ago
    And yet I get pilloried when I dare say that the Bay Area is a bad place to live. The median software dev salary for the US is under $110k. So half the people in the country make less than that, yet even in places with low salaries nationally software developers are well-paid and have no trouble affording housing and growing wealth.
    - bradlys 6y ago
      You’re probably talking to a lot of rich dudes. That’s why they get on your case. If you’re rich, it’s probably better than all those other places. But, again, need to be rich. And it takes a lot to get there for a person who grew up in a lower socioeconomic class. You’ll spend most of your life trying to get there and stay rather than enjoying the riches. (At least, that’s my experience so far!)

echelon 6y ago

I wonder what would happen if Tim Cook said they were no longer going to hire Facebook engineers as a matter of principle. They could say something like, "if you're willing to sacrifice your ethics to work for a company that spies on people, you can't be trusted with our product." Not a lifetime ban, but perhaps a 5 year ban from working at Apple after having had a tenure at Facebook. Maybe they could waive the ban for candidates that publicly renounced Facebook's practices. It'll never happen, but if it did I imagine the effects on Facebook hiring and retention would be chilling. Sort of a reverse Brian Armstrong.

saagarjha 6y ago
But what of the chilling effects on Apple’s hiring? Do we really want to start turf wars where companies can essentially reenact anti-poaching laws and the associated depression in mobility but spin it as being principled?
- echelon 6y ago
  I'd worry more about wages dropping due to WFH and creation of a "pay-adjusted" distributed workforce. I'd also worry about the monopolistic behavior of the incumbents making it harder for challengers to succeed, creating less diversity in work or employment. Principled stands won't happen. Profits matter, not morals or ethics. It's better for them to maximize the workforce pool and keep them fungible.
etaioinshrdlu 6y ago
I like this. I wonder if this is actually legal, though.
tjpnz 6y ago
>Not a lifetime ban, but perhaps a 5 year ban from working at Apple after having had a tenure at Facebook. Japan has something similar for Yakuza members who are defined as "anti social forces" with a cooling off period of 7 years. FWIW I find the idea when applied to Facebook rather appealing.

q-base 6y ago

Totally agree. I wonder if that is part of the reason for the high compensation numbers. I do not know how widespread "counter Facebook ethics" are among Engineers. I could imagine them being higher that elsewhere as it is a somewhat high-compensation segment, even outside of these monstrous FB-numbers.

38932ur98u 6y ago

How do we solve this problem? How do we prevent, or at least discourage, people from turning a blind eye to the ethical implications of working in a dystopia accelerator company like FB when job options elsewhere are plentiful?