5 ms·

Anarch: Super small public domain no-dependency from-scratch suckless Doom clone

87 points by drummyfish 6y ago

0-_-0 6y ago
"... attempts to avoid possible cultural dependencies and barriers (enemies are only robots, no violence on living beings)." I'm sure violence against robots will be unacceptable in 10 years. Or even now: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2955544/Would-kick-robotic-dog-Google-video-regnites-debate-machines-treated-like-living-animals.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2955544/Woul...
- Y_Y 6y ago
  Not to mention that the meaning of "violence" has been shifting steadily as well. Like this game and the art project, but the ideas like "no violence on living beings" (see the FAQ for more nonsense) seems pretty misguided.
  - crankyoldcrank 6y ago
    Violence is speech if you're smashing the fash. Silence is violence if you're white.
pizza234 6y ago
This project is not exactly what it promises. The title is "portable suckless [...] 90s-style Doom clone", however, in the technical details, it's specified that "this is my custom engine (raycastlib) based on raycasting, a technique used in Wolf3D engine, but it's improved, e.g. supporting multiple levels of floor and ceiling, so that the visual result is something between Wolf3D and Doom". I don't think a that an improved raycasting engine qualifies as Doom-clone (in fact, this is the reason why the project is considerably less resource-intensive than Doom). If the project qualified itself as "Improved Wolfenstein engine", it'd probably get no attention. It's admirable though that they released the assets with a very permissive license. > a different, better direction than which the mainstream technology is taking, though this involves taking some steps back to before the things started to go wrong There's definitely a significant self-absorption in this project. Modern mainstream gaming experience is different - not wrong - compared to what it was in the 90s; gamers looking for the 90s experience can still find modern retro-styled games. Also, it's not like everything from the 90s was gold. I actually do enjoy both AAA and indie FPSs. > ["modern" programming (C++17, Rust, OOP etc.) or "advanced" engines] is an extremely bad choice for building long-lasting, accessible programs. New languages are a product of capitalism, evolved by the markets to serve corporations to make quick profit, not fulfilling the values that are good for the people. I didn't read long enough to understand if this is a satire or not.
- grawprog 6y ago
  That seems a bit pedantic and a kinda negative, the whole thing read to me like a parody on the whole 'it's not a real machine unless someone's made doom run on it meme' and a homage to doom style games. It didn't seem to me like it was taking a jab at modern games or anything too serious. Just someone having a bit of fun, bragging a bit and showing off their work. Nothing to get so worked up about. It's a neat project, no need to let semantics get you worked up. It all just seems like it was made for fun and it's kind of impressive for what it is. Not everything needs to be stern and serious.
  - pizza234 6y ago
    Point taken! (although it seems the author is very serious in their anti-capitalistic stance)
    - ddingus 6y ago
      No worries on their politics though. What I see is an pretty cool project with some potential. Ports to oddball or custom devices are lean projects. This is fun too. I hope some happen and maybe some other games get made.
- qayxc 6y ago
  > I didn't read long enough to understand if this is a satire or not. I'm afraid it might not be satire at all judging from the author's other writings: https://gitlab.com/drummyfish/my_writings/-/blob/master/capitalism.txt https://gitlab.com/drummyfish/my_writings/-/blob/master/capi...
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    Under properties of capitalism: > Poverty, crime, violence. Anybody want to tell him?
    - phaemon 6y ago
ArtWomb 6y ago
Appreciate the open nature of the project. But this is sort of what state of the art web fps looks in 2020 ;) https://digiplay-gaming.itch.io/brawlbots https://digiplay-gaming.itch.io/brawlbots UE4 compiled to WebGL 2. The payload itself is a massive binary. My bias is still toward optimized WebGL 2 beating SDL 2 via emscriten. But that requires a deeper drive to demonstrate. Still, it's nice to have choices. And I think what we are seeing is definitely near native, AAA quality for web games which is exciting!
- qz2 6y ago
  But is it fun? A lot of modern games miss the fun bit. GTA V is the only modern game I’ve played which appears to have kept the fun bit intact.
  - crankyoldcrank 6y ago
    That game isn't even modern anymore. It came out for the PS3 era. We're getting old fam
- cycloptic 6y ago
  >WebGL 2, SDL 2 via emscripten If you target GLES3, you can have the speed benefits of both.
- Narishma 6y ago
  Doesn't work on my laptop, just a black page.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  SharedArrayBuffer is not defined on the latest main line firefox
CyberRabbi 6y ago
From the “manifesto”: > In today's world of capitalism and fascism Today’s world is run by neoliberal planned economies, what some Communists might call “state-run capitalism” (usually in reference to China). Fascism and capitalism is so far away from an accurate description of how today’s world operates. When you’re that far on the left, you lose the ability to distinguish between Fascism and Liberalism.
- krageon 6y ago
  Consider instead that you may be so far too the right you've stopped being able to distinguish fascism from centrism.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ReactiveJelly 6y ago
When I saw "C++17 and Rust are bad" I assumed it would be written in C89. I'm used to that kind of bad take. But it's actually written in C++. There isn't a Makefile, just make.sh. And in there, I don't see the C++ standard specified. I'm guessing g++ defaults to C++98. So that really makes you think. suckless means C++, but not the convenient parts like type inference. Not the safe parts like unique_ptr. A language with inheritance _and_ all of C's footguns. What a head-scratcher. Excellent outsider art.
- cryptofistMonk 6y ago
  He claims it's written in a subset of C99 that also compiles as C++
- Iv 6y ago
  It feels like the universe always needs a Terry Davis
  - krapp 6y ago
    Please, no. This site's relationship with Terry Davis was weirdly fetishistic when he was alive, let's not make an icon out of him after his death.
- jszymborski 6y ago
  They didn't say "C++17 and Rust are bad", they said "is an extremely bad choice for building long-lasting, accessible programs". That's a totally defensible statement.
- drummyfish 6y ago
  There is -x c in the make.sh, but you actually got me on this, I am not sure which version of C that flag chooses. But I just tried adding -std=c99 flag and it works just fine, so it is indeed in C99.
merelydev 6y ago
Play it online here: https://drummyfish.gitlab.io/anarch/bin/web/anarch.html https://drummyfish.gitlab.io/anarch/bin/web/anarch.html To the creator thank you for making this. I also enjoyed reading the manifesto. Keep up the good work and never stop fighting capitalism.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  You don't really have to fight capitalism. You can find some homestead land and gather up people for a commune.
  - ddingus 6y ago
    For now. That's getting harder to do. Eventually, everything will be monetized. It's getting more difficult to find public spaces where there isn't an expectation of spending money now. Noticeable. And maybe it's not a fight. Better management is a plausible path. More people more happy, maybe with the cost of some people not being peak happy.
    - CyberDildonics 6y ago
      I don't understand what you are saying, especially with a sentence that just says "Noticeable." You do realize that an hour outside of almost any city in the US is practically uninhabited right? Land as a whole is not in short supply.
      - ddingus 6y ago
        In urban settings, parks, even rest stops on the Interstates, as examples, the expectation of spending money is on the increase. This isn't a land availability issue. It's a monetization of public spaces issue. "Noticable" == increased to a point of concern when compared to the same sorts of places in the past.
        CyberDildonics 6y ago
jokethrowaway 6y ago
That's an admirable project I wish I could live long enough to see sentient robots become part of society and protest this violent game which discriminates robots and encourage violence towards machines. #AIUnitedCancelAnarch I also wish this wouldn't so political, I don't see what capitalism has done to this guy - including giving him the tools to create this game! There are also plenty of games that can be played and studied freely.
- krageon 6y ago
  > I also wish this wouldn't so political, Every project is political. If it doesn't question the status quo, it is condoning it tacitly. That is in itself a political action. This fetish with not being "political" is generally a dogwhistle for (extreme) right-wing thoughts, which may or may not be something you want to espouse.
- drummyfish 6y ago
  I actually don't mind violence even against people as long as it's only in games, movies etc. Never in real life. All people should be able to strictly tell apart games and reality, and then violence in games can actually be helpful to relieve the inherent need for violence in humans without hurting anyone. I used robots just to bring attention to pacifism and because I found it a nice replacement for demons, plus it also has that small extra advantage of being friendlier towards e.g. people who dislike blood or whatever. > politics My views have become a centerpoint of my life and everything I do, but I don't mind if anyone forks this and takes all politics out. Or even put your own politics in. It's all fine, that's why I released it into public domain!
  - ddingus 6y ago
    > I don't mind if anyone forks this and takes all politics out. Or even put your own politics in. Solid move. In your expression, others are empowered to also express themselves.
  - petre 6y ago
    This makes sense. I never liked playing FPS games with people. Wolfenstein 3D was an exception because the people were pixelated nazis. Doom and Cube/Sauerbraten were also ok because the player killed monsters. Microchip Corp. is an actual business. They make cool stuff like the PIC MCUs used for building useful things such as a HVAC thermostat. They're not General Atomics or Lockheed Martin who make drones used for killing people.
based2 6y ago
https://unvanquished.net/now-we-are-free/ https://unvanquished.net/now-we-are-free/ https://lwn.net/Articles/831677/ https://lwn.net/Articles/831677/
megameter 6y ago
I admire the adherence to principle and depth of execution, however I find something about this incoherent. Shaving off some aesthetic components of violence and positioning the work as anticapitalist does not address the core issue of every game project: What does the game facilitate a study of? That's not a leading question or "gotcha". It's just the thing every game player will ask at some point: What is it about? What do you do? I believe the most likely answer to that is that it's primarily a technical study, and the game part of it is not exactly the focus, which is why the content of it is directionless "filler", opting to say less of the thing it emulates, but to on some level venerate it rather than critique it: it's still a game about shooting stuff and...that's it, it has nothing more to say, it doesn't "go" somewhere. And it will stay stuck there so long as it stays within the subset of what the original game did. Which makes it, in some sense, incomplete as a work. A tech demo with a bit of game bolted on, call it what you may. If we proceed further in the direction of staying within principle and do not halt at the point where something Doom-like is possible, all these other development opportunities come up that seem more coherent with the ideology at play: * Mazes/exploration gameplay(finding one's way home) * Procedural landscapes/dream simulator * Sports gameplay * Networked virtual worlds The only problem, then, is the feeling that this would break with tradition, but that's exactly it: it would be radical from a "positive" standpoint rather than a "negative" one to develop in a new direction.
- krageon 6y ago
  This was a really unexpected critique to read here, I really enjoyed reading it.

87 points by drummyfish 6y ago

"... attempts to avoid possible cultural dependencies and barriers (enemies are only robots, no violence on living beings)." I'm sure violence against robots will be unacceptable in 10 years. Or even now: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2955544/Would-kick-robotic-dog-Google-video-regnites-debate-machines-treated-like-living-animals.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2955544/Woul...

Y_Y 6y ago
Not to mention that the meaning of "violence" has been shifting steadily as well. Like this game and the art project, but the ideas like "no violence on living beings" (see the FAQ for more nonsense) seems pretty misguided.
- crankyoldcrank 6y ago
  Violence is speech if you're smashing the fash. Silence is violence if you're white.

pizza234 6y ago

This project is not exactly what it promises. The title is "portable suckless [...] 90s-style Doom clone", however, in the technical details, it's specified that "this is my custom engine (raycastlib) based on raycasting, a technique used in Wolf3D engine, but it's improved, e.g. supporting multiple levels of floor and ceiling, so that the visual result is something between Wolf3D and Doom". I don't think a that an improved raycasting engine qualifies as Doom-clone (in fact, this is the reason why the project is considerably less resource-intensive than Doom). If the project qualified itself as "Improved Wolfenstein engine", it'd probably get no attention. It's admirable though that they released the assets with a very permissive license. > a different, better direction than which the mainstream technology is taking, though this involves taking some steps back to before the things started to go wrong There's definitely a significant self-absorption in this project. Modern mainstream gaming experience is different - not wrong - compared to what it was in the 90s; gamers looking for the 90s experience can still find modern retro-styled games. Also, it's not like everything from the 90s was gold. I actually do enjoy both AAA and indie FPSs. > ["modern" programming (C++17, Rust, OOP etc.) or "advanced" engines] is an extremely bad choice for building long-lasting, accessible programs. New languages are a product of capitalism, evolved by the markets to serve corporations to make quick profit, not fulfilling the values that are good for the people. I didn't read long enough to understand if this is a satire or not.

grawprog 6y ago
That seems a bit pedantic and a kinda negative, the whole thing read to me like a parody on the whole 'it's not a real machine unless someone's made doom run on it meme' and a homage to doom style games. It didn't seem to me like it was taking a jab at modern games or anything too serious. Just someone having a bit of fun, bragging a bit and showing off their work. Nothing to get so worked up about. It's a neat project, no need to let semantics get you worked up. It all just seems like it was made for fun and it's kind of impressive for what it is. Not everything needs to be stern and serious.
- pizza234 6y ago
  Point taken! (although it seems the author is very serious in their anti-capitalistic stance)
  - ddingus 6y ago
    No worries on their politics though. What I see is an pretty cool project with some potential. Ports to oddball or custom devices are lean projects. This is fun too. I hope some happen and maybe some other games get made.
qayxc 6y ago
> I didn't read long enough to understand if this is a satire or not. I'm afraid it might not be satire at all judging from the author's other writings: https://gitlab.com/drummyfish/my_writings/-/blob/master/capitalism.txt https://gitlab.com/drummyfish/my_writings/-/blob/master/capi...
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  Under properties of capitalism: > Poverty, crime, violence. Anybody want to tell him?
  - phaemon 6y ago

ArtWomb 6y ago

Appreciate the open nature of the project. But this is sort of what state of the art web fps looks in 2020 ;) https://digiplay-gaming.itch.io/brawlbots https://digiplay-gaming.itch.io/brawlbots UE4 compiled to WebGL 2. The payload itself is a massive binary. My bias is still toward optimized WebGL 2 beating SDL 2 via emscriten. But that requires a deeper drive to demonstrate. Still, it's nice to have choices. And I think what we are seeing is definitely near native, AAA quality for web games which is exciting!

qz2 6y ago
But is it fun? A lot of modern games miss the fun bit. GTA V is the only modern game I’ve played which appears to have kept the fun bit intact.
- crankyoldcrank 6y ago
  That game isn't even modern anymore. It came out for the PS3 era. We're getting old fam
cycloptic 6y ago
>WebGL 2, SDL 2 via emscripten If you target GLES3, you can have the speed benefits of both.
Narishma 6y ago
Doesn't work on my laptop, just a black page.
CyberDildonics 6y ago
SharedArrayBuffer is not defined on the latest main line firefox

CyberRabbi 6y ago

From the “manifesto”: > In today's world of capitalism and fascism Today’s world is run by neoliberal planned economies, what some Communists might call “state-run capitalism” (usually in reference to China). Fascism and capitalism is so far away from an accurate description of how today’s world operates. When you’re that far on the left, you lose the ability to distinguish between Fascism and Liberalism.

krageon 6y ago
Consider instead that you may be so far too the right you've stopped being able to distinguish fascism from centrism.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ReactiveJelly 6y ago

When I saw "C++17 and Rust are bad" I assumed it would be written in C89. I'm used to that kind of bad take. But it's actually written in C++. There isn't a Makefile, just make.sh. And in there, I don't see the C++ standard specified. I'm guessing g++ defaults to C++98. So that really makes you think. suckless means C++, but not the convenient parts like type inference. Not the safe parts like unique_ptr. A language with inheritance _and_ all of C's footguns. What a head-scratcher. Excellent outsider art.

cryptofistMonk 6y ago
He claims it's written in a subset of C99 that also compiles as C++
Iv 6y ago
It feels like the universe always needs a Terry Davis
- krapp 6y ago
  Please, no. This site's relationship with Terry Davis was weirdly fetishistic when he was alive, let's not make an icon out of him after his death.
jszymborski 6y ago
They didn't say "C++17 and Rust are bad", they said "is an extremely bad choice for building long-lasting, accessible programs". That's a totally defensible statement.
drummyfish 6y ago
There is -x c in the make.sh, but you actually got me on this, I am not sure which version of C that flag chooses. But I just tried adding -std=c99 flag and it works just fine, so it is indeed in C99.

merelydev 6y ago

Play it online here: https://drummyfish.gitlab.io/anarch/bin/web/anarch.html https://drummyfish.gitlab.io/anarch/bin/web/anarch.html To the creator thank you for making this. I also enjoyed reading the manifesto. Keep up the good work and never stop fighting capitalism.

CyberDildonics 6y ago
You don't really have to fight capitalism. You can find some homestead land and gather up people for a commune.
- ddingus 6y ago
  For now. That's getting harder to do. Eventually, everything will be monetized. It's getting more difficult to find public spaces where there isn't an expectation of spending money now. Noticeable. And maybe it's not a fight. Better management is a plausible path. More people more happy, maybe with the cost of some people not being peak happy.
  - CyberDildonics 6y ago
    I don't understand what you are saying, especially with a sentence that just says "Noticeable." You do realize that an hour outside of almost any city in the US is practically uninhabited right? Land as a whole is not in short supply.
    - ddingus 6y ago
      In urban settings, parks, even rest stops on the Interstates, as examples, the expectation of spending money is on the increase. This isn't a land availability issue. It's a monetization of public spaces issue. "Noticable" == increased to a point of concern when compared to the same sorts of places in the past.
      - CyberDildonics 6y ago

jokethrowaway 6y ago

That's an admirable project I wish I could live long enough to see sentient robots become part of society and protest this violent game which discriminates robots and encourage violence towards machines. #AIUnitedCancelAnarch I also wish this wouldn't so political, I don't see what capitalism has done to this guy - including giving him the tools to create this game! There are also plenty of games that can be played and studied freely.

krageon 6y ago
> I also wish this wouldn't so political, Every project is political. If it doesn't question the status quo, it is condoning it tacitly. That is in itself a political action. This fetish with not being "political" is generally a dogwhistle for (extreme) right-wing thoughts, which may or may not be something you want to espouse.
drummyfish 6y ago
I actually don't mind violence even against people as long as it's only in games, movies etc. Never in real life. All people should be able to strictly tell apart games and reality, and then violence in games can actually be helpful to relieve the inherent need for violence in humans without hurting anyone. I used robots just to bring attention to pacifism and because I found it a nice replacement for demons, plus it also has that small extra advantage of being friendlier towards e.g. people who dislike blood or whatever. > politics My views have become a centerpoint of my life and everything I do, but I don't mind if anyone forks this and takes all politics out. Or even put your own politics in. It's all fine, that's why I released it into public domain!
- ddingus 6y ago
  > I don't mind if anyone forks this and takes all politics out. Or even put your own politics in. Solid move. In your expression, others are empowered to also express themselves.
- petre 6y ago
  This makes sense. I never liked playing FPS games with people. Wolfenstein 3D was an exception because the people were pixelated nazis. Doom and Cube/Sauerbraten were also ok because the player killed monsters. Microchip Corp. is an actual business. They make cool stuff like the PIC MCUs used for building useful things such as a HVAC thermostat. They're not General Atomics or Lockheed Martin who make drones used for killing people.

based2 6y ago

https://unvanquished.net/now-we-are-free/ https://unvanquished.net/now-we-are-free/ https://lwn.net/Articles/831677/ https://lwn.net/Articles/831677/

megameter 6y ago

I admire the adherence to principle and depth of execution, however I find something about this incoherent. Shaving off some aesthetic components of violence and positioning the work as anticapitalist does not address the core issue of every game project: What does the game facilitate a study of? That's not a leading question or "gotcha". It's just the thing every game player will ask at some point: What is it about? What do you do? I believe the most likely answer to that is that it's primarily a technical study, and the game part of it is not exactly the focus, which is why the content of it is directionless "filler", opting to say less of the thing it emulates, but to on some level venerate it rather than critique it: it's still a game about shooting stuff and...that's it, it has nothing more to say, it doesn't "go" somewhere. And it will stay stuck there so long as it stays within the subset of what the original game did. Which makes it, in some sense, incomplete as a work. A tech demo with a bit of game bolted on, call it what you may. If we proceed further in the direction of staying within principle and do not halt at the point where something Doom-like is possible, all these other development opportunities come up that seem more coherent with the ideology at play: * Mazes/exploration gameplay(finding one's way home) * Procedural landscapes/dream simulator * Sports gameplay * Networked virtual worlds The only problem, then, is the feeling that this would break with tradition, but that's exactly it: it would be radical from a "positive" standpoint rather than a "negative" one to develop in a new direction.

krageon 6y ago
This was a really unexpected critique to read here, I really enjoyed reading it.