7 ms·

People have lost trust in the system. Its pretty much the worst thing that can happen to systems that are not supported by laws of nature. Fictional structures

People have lost trust in the system. Its pretty much the worst thing that can happen to systems that are not supported by laws of nature. Fictional structures implode once trust is gone. Financial systems, ideologies, religions.. Gone..

krapp 6y ago
No... this is exclusively Trump and his supporters trying desperately to de-legitimize the election by accusing Democrats of fraud despite no evidence of it - a tactic that's been in their playbook since Trump accused them of trying to "rig the election" in 2016. They've done everything from threaten to sue to showing up with armed mobs and harassing vote counters to spreading conspiracy theories about black sharpies[0] and Democrats burning Trump ballots[1] to now calling on state legislatures to override the election through faithless electors[2]. This after all of the vote suppression efforts they've been undertaking prior to the election[3], implicating massive Democratic voter fraud and condemning mail-in ballots (I wonder why so many of them seem to be for Biden...), implicating Biden as a pedophile, the whole thing with his son's laptop, and of course the states doing their typical voter suppression regime. This is not a societal issue, people in general have not lost trust in the system. This election has seen more engagement than any election in recent history. One political party has been trying to undermine the system and sow mistrust within its own ranks in order to maintain political power. [0]https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/05/sharpie-ballots-trump-strategy-arizona-434372 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/05/sharpie-ballots-tru... [1]https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/business/ballot-burning-fake-video/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/business/ballot-burning-fake-... [2]https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/11/donald-trump-jr-just-promoted-a-brazen-plan-to-steal-the-election/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/11/donald-trump-jr... [3]https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/02/politics/ben-ginsberg-voter-suppression-voter-fraud-2020-election/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/02/politics/ben-ginsberg-voter-s...
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Disagree. I would say that even antifa is a loss of trust in the system - they don't believe that the legal and political systems will do the job of containing fascism, so they have to take it to the streets.
  - PopsiclePete 6y ago
    Do you blame them? How many cops need to be exonerated for the blatant murder of our fellow citizens before "disband the police" actually starts sounding semi-reasonable?
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      I am not arguing that. I am arguing that krapp's claim (that "people in general have not lost trust in the system") is false. You think that disbanding the police sounds semi-reasonable? (I think that starting by disbanding the police union, so that they can't protect neer-do-wells in uniform is where to start, but that's a side issue.) Then you're (I presume) on the left, and you are losing trust in the system. Which is my point.
      - krapp 6y ago
        Most people aren't in Antifa or BLM, and most people probably don't think disbanding the police entirely seems like a good idea, even if they agree that reform is necessary. The US is approaching the highest rate of voter turnout since 1900 - during a pandemic no less - that doesn't happen if most people have lost faith in the system. If anything, a lot of people who might have, got religion over the last four years.
        jfim 6y ago
        One can have no faith in the system yet still vote. The turnout in this election is driven by the large polarization of the electorate ("the other side will do unspeakable things if you don't vote to save America!"), not by trust in the system.
        AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        We seem to be arguing at cross purposes. I'm talking about people (as are most of the others here), and (I think) you're talking about political parties. (And you always have been in this thread, so my initial reply to you was where things went a bit sideways.) But I think you're still wrong. The way the Democratic Party dealt with Bernie Sanders (twice) is not the sign of a party that believes in the system.
- PopsiclePete 6y ago
  Roughly 50% of voters in this election voted for Trump. His approval rating amongst his own voters is in the high 90%'s. If Trump is saying that the election is fraudulent and undermining the Democratic institutions of this country, then by definition all of his supporters are complicit. How is 50% of a nation's eligible voting population thinking that their future government is illegitimate not a societal failure? You gotta hand it to Putin. Two more election cycles like this and the US is toast and he never had to fire. a single shot. Turns out all you need to do is weaponize social media and use it against a country with low education standards like the US and you win. Meanwhile we are building multi-billion super-carriers and investing in stealth technology and all Putin needs is a troll farm in St Petersburg whispering that America's biggest threat is BLM, Socialists and Obama/Biden/Democratic boogeyman.
  - entropea 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure like a used 1994 Ford Taurus worth of silly not even political ads on Facebook are the only social media manipulation by Russia evidenced? I may be wrong. These are domestic problems and much larger and longer stemming than just Russia starting all of it. Things were this bad before Trump, but Trump ripped off the facade of "decency".
  - krapp 6y ago
    The point I'm trying to get across is that this specific mistrust isn't organic, it's driven by political propaganda.
    - legolas2412 6y ago
      griffoa was arguing that people have lost trust in the system. Whether is it organically arosen from disagreement with the opposite side, or disinformation from political propaganda is a separate topic. It does not change the fact that america is a divided country where the rural half has lost trust in the urban half of the country.
      - krapp 6y ago
- disown 6y ago
  "Hillary Clinton warns of Trump trying to ‘sneak or steal his way’ to a second term" https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/19/hillary-clinton-dnc-speech-398893 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/19/hillary-clinton-dnc... Every side accuses the other side of stealing the election. It's pretty much an american tradition. I bet in 2016, you were screaming at the top of your lungs that "Trump stole the election". > One political party has been trying to undermine the system and sow mistrust within its own ranks in order to maintain political power. Are you claiming that the republican and democratic parties are one and the same? Because you would be right. I love all the democratic operatives here accusing Trump of delegitimizing the election process when that's all they've been doing the past 4 years. Now, it's the republican side's turn I guess. Hypocrisy is the ugliest human trait.
  - krapp 6y ago
    >I bet in 2016, you were screaming at the top of your lungs that "Trump stole the election". Actually, no. But your liberal strawman is as expected as it is tedious. No, the "both-sides are equal" thing isn't going to work. On the one hand, you have a quote by Hillary Clinton which is proving kind of correct in hindsight, on the other, literal armed mobs of Trump supporters threatening to stop the counting of votes by force, lawsuits, attempts to "override" the vote, and hoaxes perpetrated by Trump's own family. These things are not equal.
    - disown 6y ago
      > Actually, no. But your liberal strawman is as expected as it is tedious. Not calling you are liar, but yours was the easiest lie I've ever spotted. You didn't think he stole? You didn't think russians got him elected? Or any of the other democratic talking points? Sure. > No, the "both-sides are equal" thing isn't going to work. It works because it's true. Both sides are hypocrites and both sides are liars. You and your "crazies" are just as cringey as the "crazies" on trump's side. > On the one hand, you have a quote by Hillary Clinton ... And the past 4 years of neverending 24/7 effort by a political party and the corporate media to delegitimize. Were you in a coma the last 4 years? > which is proving kind of correct in hindsight So you are saying it's true that Trump stole the election? Jesus you can't help yourself can you? > on the other, literal armed mobs of Trump supporters threatening to stop the counting of votes by force, lawsuits, attempts to "override" the vote, and hoaxes perpetrated by Trump's own family. You are right. There's no armed mobs on the anti-trump side. There have been no attempts to override the vote. No hoaxes. It's all just one side. Hypocrisy is truly the ugliest human trait. I'll make a prediction. If Trump somehow wins, you'll be the first to whine about stolen election.
zarkov99 6y ago
Yes they have. But can you blame them? The media, academia, scientists, WHO, CDC, the government, all lied purposefully and continuously during the pandemic. Social media is infused top to bottom with disinformation from all sorts of nefarious actors, foreign and domestic. It's a mess.

krapp 6y ago

No... this is exclusively Trump and his supporters trying desperately to de-legitimize the election by accusing Democrats of fraud despite no evidence of it - a tactic that's been in their playbook since Trump accused them of trying to "rig the election" in 2016. They've done everything from threaten to sue to showing up with armed mobs and harassing vote counters to spreading conspiracy theories about black sharpies[0] and Democrats burning Trump ballots[1] to now calling on state legislatures to override the election through faithless electors[2]. This after all of the vote suppression efforts they've been undertaking prior to the election[3], implicating massive Democratic voter fraud and condemning mail-in ballots (I wonder why so many of them seem to be for Biden...), implicating Biden as a pedophile, the whole thing with his son's laptop, and of course the states doing their typical voter suppression regime. This is not a societal issue, people in general have not lost trust in the system. This election has seen more engagement than any election in recent history. One political party has been trying to undermine the system and sow mistrust within its own ranks in order to maintain political power. [0]https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/05/sharpie-ballots-trump-strategy-arizona-434372 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/05/sharpie-ballots-tru... [1]https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/business/ballot-burning-fake-video/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/business/ballot-burning-fake-... [2]https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/11/donald-trump-jr-just-promoted-a-brazen-plan-to-steal-the-election/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/11/donald-trump-jr... [3]https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/02/politics/ben-ginsberg-voter-suppression-voter-fraud-2020-election/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/02/politics/ben-ginsberg-voter-s...

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Disagree. I would say that even antifa is a loss of trust in the system - they don't believe that the legal and political systems will do the job of containing fascism, so they have to take it to the streets.
- PopsiclePete 6y ago
  Do you blame them? How many cops need to be exonerated for the blatant murder of our fellow citizens before "disband the police" actually starts sounding semi-reasonable?
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    I am not arguing that. I am arguing that krapp's claim (that "people in general have not lost trust in the system") is false. You think that disbanding the police sounds semi-reasonable? (I think that starting by disbanding the police union, so that they can't protect neer-do-wells in uniform is where to start, but that's a side issue.) Then you're (I presume) on the left, and you are losing trust in the system. Which is my point.
    - krapp 6y ago
      Most people aren't in Antifa or BLM, and most people probably don't think disbanding the police entirely seems like a good idea, even if they agree that reform is necessary. The US is approaching the highest rate of voter turnout since 1900 - during a pandemic no less - that doesn't happen if most people have lost faith in the system. If anything, a lot of people who might have, got religion over the last four years.
      - jfim 6y ago
        One can have no faith in the system yet still vote. The turnout in this election is driven by the large polarization of the electorate ("the other side will do unspeakable things if you don't vote to save America!"), not by trust in the system.
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        We seem to be arguing at cross purposes. I'm talking about people (as are most of the others here), and (I think) you're talking about political parties. (And you always have been in this thread, so my initial reply to you was where things went a bit sideways.) But I think you're still wrong. The way the Democratic Party dealt with Bernie Sanders (twice) is not the sign of a party that believes in the system.
PopsiclePete 6y ago
Roughly 50% of voters in this election voted for Trump. His approval rating amongst his own voters is in the high 90%'s. If Trump is saying that the election is fraudulent and undermining the Democratic institutions of this country, then by definition all of his supporters are complicit. How is 50% of a nation's eligible voting population thinking that their future government is illegitimate not a societal failure? You gotta hand it to Putin. Two more election cycles like this and the US is toast and he never had to fire. a single shot. Turns out all you need to do is weaponize social media and use it against a country with low education standards like the US and you win. Meanwhile we are building multi-billion super-carriers and investing in stealth technology and all Putin needs is a troll farm in St Petersburg whispering that America's biggest threat is BLM, Socialists and Obama/Biden/Democratic boogeyman.
- entropea 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure like a used 1994 Ford Taurus worth of silly not even political ads on Facebook are the only social media manipulation by Russia evidenced? I may be wrong. These are domestic problems and much larger and longer stemming than just Russia starting all of it. Things were this bad before Trump, but Trump ripped off the facade of "decency".
- krapp 6y ago
  The point I'm trying to get across is that this specific mistrust isn't organic, it's driven by political propaganda.
  - legolas2412 6y ago
    griffoa was arguing that people have lost trust in the system. Whether is it organically arosen from disagreement with the opposite side, or disinformation from political propaganda is a separate topic. It does not change the fact that america is a divided country where the rural half has lost trust in the urban half of the country.
    - krapp 6y ago
disown 6y ago
"Hillary Clinton warns of Trump trying to ‘sneak or steal his way’ to a second term" https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/19/hillary-clinton-dnc-speech-398893 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/19/hillary-clinton-dnc... Every side accuses the other side of stealing the election. It's pretty much an american tradition. I bet in 2016, you were screaming at the top of your lungs that "Trump stole the election". > One political party has been trying to undermine the system and sow mistrust within its own ranks in order to maintain political power. Are you claiming that the republican and democratic parties are one and the same? Because you would be right. I love all the democratic operatives here accusing Trump of delegitimizing the election process when that's all they've been doing the past 4 years. Now, it's the republican side's turn I guess. Hypocrisy is the ugliest human trait.
- krapp 6y ago
  >I bet in 2016, you were screaming at the top of your lungs that "Trump stole the election". Actually, no. But your liberal strawman is as expected as it is tedious. No, the "both-sides are equal" thing isn't going to work. On the one hand, you have a quote by Hillary Clinton which is proving kind of correct in hindsight, on the other, literal armed mobs of Trump supporters threatening to stop the counting of votes by force, lawsuits, attempts to "override" the vote, and hoaxes perpetrated by Trump's own family. These things are not equal.
  - disown 6y ago
    > Actually, no. But your liberal strawman is as expected as it is tedious. Not calling you are liar, but yours was the easiest lie I've ever spotted. You didn't think he stole? You didn't think russians got him elected? Or any of the other democratic talking points? Sure. > No, the "both-sides are equal" thing isn't going to work. It works because it's true. Both sides are hypocrites and both sides are liars. You and your "crazies" are just as cringey as the "crazies" on trump's side. > On the one hand, you have a quote by Hillary Clinton ... And the past 4 years of neverending 24/7 effort by a political party and the corporate media to delegitimize. Were you in a coma the last 4 years? > which is proving kind of correct in hindsight So you are saying it's true that Trump stole the election? Jesus you can't help yourself can you? > on the other, literal armed mobs of Trump supporters threatening to stop the counting of votes by force, lawsuits, attempts to "override" the vote, and hoaxes perpetrated by Trump's own family. You are right. There's no armed mobs on the anti-trump side. There have been no attempts to override the vote. No hoaxes. It's all just one side. Hypocrisy is truly the ugliest human trait. I'll make a prediction. If Trump somehow wins, you'll be the first to whine about stolen election.

zarkov99 6y ago

Yes they have. But can you blame them? The media, academia, scientists, WHO, CDC, the government, all lied purposefully and continuously during the pandemic. Social media is infused top to bottom with disinformation from all sorts of nefarious actors, foreign and domestic. It's a mess.