5 ms·

>wisecracks that are wildly out of line for most white collar business environments. I would daresay out of line for all business environments. Blue collar doe

>wisecracks that are wildly out of line for most white collar business environments. I would daresay out of line for all business environments. Blue collar doesn't mean one must suffer boorishness.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
A great many of these people would say that their workplace culture is fine and that white collar workplace culture is too PC and stifling.
- mulmen 6y ago
  They would say that but it doesn’t change the fact that they make people around them uncomfortable. They may have a right to speak but they don’t get to claim other people’s emotions are wrong or nonexistent.
  - fooperdupes 6y ago
    I think the argument is not that other people's emotions are wrong or nonexistant, but that different cultures assume different behaviors in regards to those emotions. Responses to the different emotions are culturally coded, hence there is no "correct" way to respond to an emotion. Just because someone feels a certain way does not imply or entitle them to a certain kind of treatment. I'm not trying to apologize for ultra-masculine culture, but this epistemic argument about the presence or absence of emotions boils down to "their culture is not my culture" and just increases the divisions between those cultures and accelerates the culture war. In the end - if what you actually cared about was people being uncomfortable you'd think through the economic, social and technical structures that make them feel uncomfortable. IMO, it has overwhelmingly to do with naive adoption of technology, with PC culture being a way for those who benefit from this adoption to cope with the negative results of that adoption.
    - mulmen 6y ago
      I’m saying if you want to be offensive then own it. Say you are comfortable offending people. At least I can respect the conviction. Don’t tell me I’m wrong for being offended because it’s your “workplace culture”.
      - fooperdupes 6y ago
        Pushing emotions (your own or others) into the right/wrong binary is what is worth avoiding.
        mulmen 6y ago
        I’m not sure what you are arguing here.
      - ghostleo 6y ago
        It's not either/or. Someone can opt not to try to modify their behavior in an effort to never offend anyone without accusing other people of having the "wrong" feelings. A person can also make concessions on some of their behaviors and not others.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  Those aren't the people who have to worry about the bottom line. People who just kind of have a "job" and, magically, money comes to them every few weeks, sometimes don't appreciate how difficult the magic money is to create. Nor can they appreciate how easily it can disappear. I always look at it as the customer has my money in his or her pocket. As I'm not, myself, ever going to risk getting that money by calling that guy's daughter ugly. I'm not even going to consider putting anyone in front of that guy if there's even the slightest chance that he or she might call that guy's daughter ugly. A lot of business success and failure is just common sense stuff like this. That's probably at least a part of what gave rise to that blue/white division in the first place. The guys at the top simply don't want to lose money over something stupid.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    I agree with what you said but with the caveat that a large part of dealing with both customers and employees is being able to wear both hats. You can probably skate by wearing just one but you'll either have bad morale or miss out on some customers. Letting people act uncouth when it's not inappropriate to do so is basically free. Like anything you have to be reasonable and it comes down to a judgement call.
    - bilbo0s 6y ago
      Letting people act uncouth when it's not inappropriate to do so is basically free. No it's not free, because it bleeds. It bleeds into interactions where it's completely inappropriate. You want to be uncouth, do it at home in places where there is no possible connection to me or my business. You're at this business, then you're on your P's and Q's or you're out. Simple as that. Times are already hard enough without throwing nuggetheadedness on top of everything else that's losing businesses money and putting employee livelihoods at risk.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        >it's not free, because it bleeds. It bleeds into interactions where it's completely inappropriate. But the million dollar question is how much it bleeds and whether that is worse than the trade-offs you get from telling people not to joke around. (obviously it's a scale not a binary choice)
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Yes, because PC doesn't change the dispositions. I have worse experiences with prejudices that were underhanded while holding to etiquette just fine. I prefer the more honest variant if it has to be. But it isn't a masculinity problem, it is just plain dominance behavior. That can have different manifestations. Some use drastic expressions, some try to shield women from the barbaric hordes. Professional distance has its place in business of course.
- orwin 6y ago
  Yeah, and when the woman start shooting back and is actually funnier than the bully, he start trying physical "play", and go cry to the boss once he's taken a knee in the nuts. Listen, i won't argue about "too PC", but in my experience, if a workplace have a not PC culture and the target of discrimination start shooting back harder than the bully, it always end poorly for everyone.
- xfitm3 6y ago
  I share this thought. I have worked in different industries and the hyper sensitivity of a modern office just makes me withdraw from all social activity. I'm in constant fear of doing the wrong thing which seems to change day by day. I'm a decent person and I treat people with respect. The reality is this isn't the goal of PC, I have to be socially submissive to the trend of the month.
ok123456 6y ago
Nice classsplaining.

>wisecracks that are wildly out of line for most white collar business environments. I would daresay out of line for all business environments. Blue collar doesn't mean one must suffer boorishness.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

A great many of these people would say that their workplace culture is fine and that white collar workplace culture is too PC and stifling.

mulmen 6y ago
They would say that but it doesn’t change the fact that they make people around them uncomfortable. They may have a right to speak but they don’t get to claim other people’s emotions are wrong or nonexistent.
- fooperdupes 6y ago
  I think the argument is not that other people's emotions are wrong or nonexistant, but that different cultures assume different behaviors in regards to those emotions. Responses to the different emotions are culturally coded, hence there is no "correct" way to respond to an emotion. Just because someone feels a certain way does not imply or entitle them to a certain kind of treatment. I'm not trying to apologize for ultra-masculine culture, but this epistemic argument about the presence or absence of emotions boils down to "their culture is not my culture" and just increases the divisions between those cultures and accelerates the culture war. In the end - if what you actually cared about was people being uncomfortable you'd think through the economic, social and technical structures that make them feel uncomfortable. IMO, it has overwhelmingly to do with naive adoption of technology, with PC culture being a way for those who benefit from this adoption to cope with the negative results of that adoption.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    I’m saying if you want to be offensive then own it. Say you are comfortable offending people. At least I can respect the conviction. Don’t tell me I’m wrong for being offended because it’s your “workplace culture”.
    - fooperdupes 6y ago
      Pushing emotions (your own or others) into the right/wrong binary is what is worth avoiding.
      - mulmen 6y ago
        I’m not sure what you are arguing here.
    - ghostleo 6y ago
      It's not either/or. Someone can opt not to try to modify their behavior in an effort to never offend anyone without accusing other people of having the "wrong" feelings. A person can also make concessions on some of their behaviors and not others.
bilbo0s 6y ago
Those aren't the people who have to worry about the bottom line. People who just kind of have a "job" and, magically, money comes to them every few weeks, sometimes don't appreciate how difficult the magic money is to create. Nor can they appreciate how easily it can disappear. I always look at it as the customer has my money in his or her pocket. As I'm not, myself, ever going to risk getting that money by calling that guy's daughter ugly. I'm not even going to consider putting anyone in front of that guy if there's even the slightest chance that he or she might call that guy's daughter ugly. A lot of business success and failure is just common sense stuff like this. That's probably at least a part of what gave rise to that blue/white division in the first place. The guys at the top simply don't want to lose money over something stupid.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  I agree with what you said but with the caveat that a large part of dealing with both customers and employees is being able to wear both hats. You can probably skate by wearing just one but you'll either have bad morale or miss out on some customers. Letting people act uncouth when it's not inappropriate to do so is basically free. Like anything you have to be reasonable and it comes down to a judgement call.
  - bilbo0s 6y ago
    Letting people act uncouth when it's not inappropriate to do so is basically free. No it's not free, because it bleeds. It bleeds into interactions where it's completely inappropriate. You want to be uncouth, do it at home in places where there is no possible connection to me or my business. You're at this business, then you're on your P's and Q's or you're out. Simple as that. Times are already hard enough without throwing nuggetheadedness on top of everything else that's losing businesses money and putting employee livelihoods at risk.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >it's not free, because it bleeds. It bleeds into interactions where it's completely inappropriate. But the million dollar question is how much it bleeds and whether that is worse than the trade-offs you get from telling people not to joke around. (obviously it's a scale not a binary choice)
raxxorrax 6y ago
Yes, because PC doesn't change the dispositions. I have worse experiences with prejudices that were underhanded while holding to etiquette just fine. I prefer the more honest variant if it has to be. But it isn't a masculinity problem, it is just plain dominance behavior. That can have different manifestations. Some use drastic expressions, some try to shield women from the barbaric hordes. Professional distance has its place in business of course.
orwin 6y ago
Yeah, and when the woman start shooting back and is actually funnier than the bully, he start trying physical "play", and go cry to the boss once he's taken a knee in the nuts. Listen, i won't argue about "too PC", but in my experience, if a workplace have a not PC culture and the target of discrimination start shooting back harder than the bully, it always end poorly for everyone.
xfitm3 6y ago
I share this thought. I have worked in different industries and the hyper sensitivity of a modern office just makes me withdraw from all social activity. I'm in constant fear of doing the wrong thing which seems to change day by day. I'm a decent person and I treat people with respect. The reality is this isn't the goal of PC, I have to be socially submissive to the trend of the month.

ok123456 6y ago

Nice classsplaining.