5 ms·

what the hell is a TERF?

pksebben 6y ago
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist - It's a term for someone who is a feminist, but doesn't want Trans people benefiting from their activism, or identifying as anything other than what they were assigned at birth. Depending on who you ask, it's either a ridiculous leftist flailing or a legitimate painting of a behavior as a kind of uncle-tom-ism. I tend towards the latter, myself.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  What is ‘Uncle Tom’ism. ETA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom_syndrome Is this what you meant?
  - pksebben 6y ago
    Precisely, yes. Specifically > In a broader context, the term may refer to a minority's strategy of coping with oppression from socially, culturally, or economically dominant groups involving suppression of aggressive feelings and even identification with the oppressor, leading to forced assimilation/acculturation of the cultural minority.[3]
    - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      I don’t get it. Who is 1. The minority 2. Dominant group 3. Oppressor?
  - pksebben 6y ago
    replying to > I don’t get it. Who is 1. The minority 2. Dominant group 3. Oppressor? ...because we have reached peak nesting. 2 + 3 are the same thing - in this context, as we are talking about feminism, cis white males. Why cis and white? Because that is the demographic that has held the strongest monopoly on cultural and political power - from priests to politicians. 1. The minority (defined, in this case, as the class(es) with inferior cultural and political power) - is sort of the sticking point between a TERF and not-a-TERF. If you are a TERF, you define the boundaries of this class as "assigned at birth biological women" - these are your compatriots for whom you march to get rights for. In your opinion, there is no Uncle Tomming happening, because you are engaging in the fight with all good faith that the oppressed (women by your definition) are being represented against the entrenched desires of the opressors (men). However, if you are of the opinion that the circle of individuals deserving of representation includes both assigned-at-birth and Trans women, then by your standard, any woman who engages in the same oppressive behavior that men do (in targeting or singling out Trans individuals for derision / marginalization) is an Uncle Tom. They are more closely identifying themselves with the oppressor than the oppressed. Mind you, this is not to say that a) all cis white males are actively engaged in being oppressive or b) women, whether they are labeled as a Terf or not, are part of the oppressing class ...it is merely a distinction useful to those who are of the belief that as go one, go all, and that Trans women have just as much a right to be recognized as such. edit: apologies, I suppose I just missed the appropriate 'reply' button, but I swear it wasn't showing up before.
    - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      i am going to write down initial thoughts as points: 1. i dont necessarily want transgender people to appropriate the term 'women'. why cant they call themselves non-menstruators instead? 2. i work with someone who is FtM and has three children. I refer to 'them' as 'they'...i make an effort if its in public and in front of others.. but to me M will always be a 'she'. Why? Because I share many female experiences with her. including our lived experience of menstruation. i can talk these things with her. complain about my breasts or snigger about boys. she gets it. in my mental landscape, she is my friend and i relate to her as a female. and she accepts this! i dont understand why random non transgender people get into this crusade mode? M doesnt mind because M is my friend. And our friendship wouldnt survive if i have to walk around her upon eggshells. 3. Had M been MtF, I could have never been as close. she knows this is confusing to me, but doesn't care. Women have experiences physically and emotionally that is distinct from men or those who have never been women. Including menarche, period, menopause, our bodies, our reproductive plumbing, our hormones, our hot flashes. stuff that i can NEVER share that with someone who is MtF. 4. Also, i am not a feminist. i strongly believe that feminism ruined the lives of females. I see this at my work everyday. From machines to work gloves to boots to tools, nothing is designed for women who farm. what is the actual practical purpose of feminism if it isnt useful to females? men and male society has purposely made our lives difficult because of feminism in all the little practical ways. what is the net gain at the end? my grandmother who never worked a day in her life and ruled the kitchen was more of a feminist than the super women i see these days juggling for work-life balance. they squeeze their toes into high heels and demand that men treat them equally, but go through the motions of punishing feminism. Net net loss. I abhor feminism. So it is very jarring for me when i am called a feminist. never mind a 'TERF'. 5. In my country, transgender people suffer great intolerance and discrimination and abuse. But in our myth and culture, they are greatly revered as the third sex. even with religion and culture, the society couldnt accept the third sex integrated into the existing two. i dont think this is a symptom of a backward people, but rather the lack of shared bonding experiences between the three genders. this is absolutely understandable. it is not hate or intolerance. it is merely people's comfort level. anything anyone feels towards others is ultimately a reflection of themselves and not about the one who is on the receiving end. 6. i find it ironic that the term 'uncle tomming' is used. a male archetype by itself to describe a feminist. is this intentional? if it is, it would seem that it was picked to be intentionally insulting. 7. the more i hear from the so called 'TERF's, i understand and somewhat agree with some of their objections. would I compete in a womens only sport if there was a transgender participant? no. would I feel comfortable stripping naked in a changing room with a transgender person? no. would i be sexually attracted to a transgender person? maybe. it depends. in my mind, i have compartments and there is a compartment for men and one for women and two for transgender. 8. i also feel like there is weight to being a biological woman. it is certainly genetic because all life begins as female. the Y is a mutation. men have already hijacked biological code to create a second gender for the necessary purpose of procreation to ensure the perpetuation of our species. this is science. and i am not denying that. having said that, the lived experience and mental space of being female is entirely different. 9. it is a roller coaster ride going from girl child to teenager to young maiden to mother to crone. it is largely controlled by our hormones while transgender individuals have hacked the system to control their genetic code. in a lot of ways, they have already won in this biological game of life. so why appropriate our experience? women are the passive players in this dna orchestra. i dont think most women who have ridden that roller coaster and have survived it would want to give a transgender individual a participation medal for just showing up mid way. how does it work other way around? do men get accused of insensitivity if they dont want to sit in the sauna naked with a transgender FtM? seems like bullying of females to me. biological women are being bullied with names like TERF. 10. recognising trans women as women is a textbook definition. if my friend wants to be called a man or a woman, i dont mind complying. its just language, but my internal perception will always be based on their biology. this is my truth. 11. i dont want to be differentiated as a 'menstruator'. i would rather they call themselves non-menstruating women. or as menstruating men.(altho i suspect this wouldnt be an issue) my biology and lived experiences have shaped me and sometimes at great costs. some of it social. i cannot let that be hijacked. i resent greatly that the definition of my being has to change to accomodate others. 12. we say that someone young can be an "old soul" and vice versa. we dont call a caucasian person who relates to being african american by any other racial descriptor other than white. (before someone else bring it up..yes..unless they are from ..say..south africa. "Elon Musk is African-American." but thats a whole other definition based on nationality) why shouldnt transgender people be legitimised by their own label? it is certainly more respectful to all parties involved.
- daptaq 6y ago
  > but doesn't want Trans people benefiting from their activism Strictly speaking, this isn't correct since their advocacy includes trans men, since they view them as female.

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist - It's a term for someone who is a feminist, but doesn't want Trans people benefiting from their activism, or identifying as anything other than what they were assigned at birth. Depending on who you ask, it's either a ridiculous leftist flailing or a legitimate painting of a behavior as a kind of uncle-tom-ism. I tend towards the latter, myself.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago
What is ‘Uncle Tom’ism. ETA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom_syndrome Is this what you meant?
- pksebben 6y ago
  Precisely, yes. Specifically > In a broader context, the term may refer to a minority's strategy of coping with oppression from socially, culturally, or economically dominant groups involving suppression of aggressive feelings and even identification with the oppressor, leading to forced assimilation/acculturation of the cultural minority.[3]
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    I don’t get it. Who is 1. The minority 2. Dominant group 3. Oppressor?
- pksebben 6y ago
  replying to > I don’t get it. Who is 1. The minority 2. Dominant group 3. Oppressor? ...because we have reached peak nesting. 2 + 3 are the same thing - in this context, as we are talking about feminism, cis white males. Why cis and white? Because that is the demographic that has held the strongest monopoly on cultural and political power - from priests to politicians. 1. The minority (defined, in this case, as the class(es) with inferior cultural and political power) - is sort of the sticking point between a TERF and not-a-TERF. If you are a TERF, you define the boundaries of this class as "assigned at birth biological women" - these are your compatriots for whom you march to get rights for. In your opinion, there is no Uncle Tomming happening, because you are engaging in the fight with all good faith that the oppressed (women by your definition) are being represented against the entrenched desires of the opressors (men). However, if you are of the opinion that the circle of individuals deserving of representation includes both assigned-at-birth and Trans women, then by your standard, any woman who engages in the same oppressive behavior that men do (in targeting or singling out Trans individuals for derision / marginalization) is an Uncle Tom. They are more closely identifying themselves with the oppressor than the oppressed. Mind you, this is not to say that a) all cis white males are actively engaged in being oppressive or b) women, whether they are labeled as a Terf or not, are part of the oppressing class ...it is merely a distinction useful to those who are of the belief that as go one, go all, and that Trans women have just as much a right to be recognized as such. edit: apologies, I suppose I just missed the appropriate 'reply' button, but I swear it wasn't showing up before.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    i am going to write down initial thoughts as points: 1. i dont necessarily want transgender people to appropriate the term 'women'. why cant they call themselves non-menstruators instead? 2. i work with someone who is FtM and has three children. I refer to 'them' as 'they'...i make an effort if its in public and in front of others.. but to me M will always be a 'she'. Why? Because I share many female experiences with her. including our lived experience of menstruation. i can talk these things with her. complain about my breasts or snigger about boys. she gets it. in my mental landscape, she is my friend and i relate to her as a female. and she accepts this! i dont understand why random non transgender people get into this crusade mode? M doesnt mind because M is my friend. And our friendship wouldnt survive if i have to walk around her upon eggshells. 3. Had M been MtF, I could have never been as close. she knows this is confusing to me, but doesn't care. Women have experiences physically and emotionally that is distinct from men or those who have never been women. Including menarche, period, menopause, our bodies, our reproductive plumbing, our hormones, our hot flashes. stuff that i can NEVER share that with someone who is MtF. 4. Also, i am not a feminist. i strongly believe that feminism ruined the lives of females. I see this at my work everyday. From machines to work gloves to boots to tools, nothing is designed for women who farm. what is the actual practical purpose of feminism if it isnt useful to females? men and male society has purposely made our lives difficult because of feminism in all the little practical ways. what is the net gain at the end? my grandmother who never worked a day in her life and ruled the kitchen was more of a feminist than the super women i see these days juggling for work-life balance. they squeeze their toes into high heels and demand that men treat them equally, but go through the motions of punishing feminism. Net net loss. I abhor feminism. So it is very jarring for me when i am called a feminist. never mind a 'TERF'. 5. In my country, transgender people suffer great intolerance and discrimination and abuse. But in our myth and culture, they are greatly revered as the third sex. even with religion and culture, the society couldnt accept the third sex integrated into the existing two. i dont think this is a symptom of a backward people, but rather the lack of shared bonding experiences between the three genders. this is absolutely understandable. it is not hate or intolerance. it is merely people's comfort level. anything anyone feels towards others is ultimately a reflection of themselves and not about the one who is on the receiving end. 6. i find it ironic that the term 'uncle tomming' is used. a male archetype by itself to describe a feminist. is this intentional? if it is, it would seem that it was picked to be intentionally insulting. 7. the more i hear from the so called 'TERF's, i understand and somewhat agree with some of their objections. would I compete in a womens only sport if there was a transgender participant? no. would I feel comfortable stripping naked in a changing room with a transgender person? no. would i be sexually attracted to a transgender person? maybe. it depends. in my mind, i have compartments and there is a compartment for men and one for women and two for transgender. 8. i also feel like there is weight to being a biological woman. it is certainly genetic because all life begins as female. the Y is a mutation. men have already hijacked biological code to create a second gender for the necessary purpose of procreation to ensure the perpetuation of our species. this is science. and i am not denying that. having said that, the lived experience and mental space of being female is entirely different. 9. it is a roller coaster ride going from girl child to teenager to young maiden to mother to crone. it is largely controlled by our hormones while transgender individuals have hacked the system to control their genetic code. in a lot of ways, they have already won in this biological game of life. so why appropriate our experience? women are the passive players in this dna orchestra. i dont think most women who have ridden that roller coaster and have survived it would want to give a transgender individual a participation medal for just showing up mid way. how does it work other way around? do men get accused of insensitivity if they dont want to sit in the sauna naked with a transgender FtM? seems like bullying of females to me. biological women are being bullied with names like TERF. 10. recognising trans women as women is a textbook definition. if my friend wants to be called a man or a woman, i dont mind complying. its just language, but my internal perception will always be based on their biology. this is my truth. 11. i dont want to be differentiated as a 'menstruator'. i would rather they call themselves non-menstruating women. or as menstruating men.(altho i suspect this wouldnt be an issue) my biology and lived experiences have shaped me and sometimes at great costs. some of it social. i cannot let that be hijacked. i resent greatly that the definition of my being has to change to accomodate others. 12. we say that someone young can be an "old soul" and vice versa. we dont call a caucasian person who relates to being african american by any other racial descriptor other than white. (before someone else bring it up..yes..unless they are from ..say..south africa. "Elon Musk is African-American." but thats a whole other definition based on nationality) why shouldnt transgender people be legitimised by their own label? it is certainly more respectful to all parties involved.
daptaq 6y ago
> but doesn't want Trans people benefiting from their activism Strictly speaking, this isn't correct since their advocacy includes trans men, since they view them as female.