6 ms·

Sciter is a very nice engine with a solid API/SDK and rock solid engineering behind it. For developers building efficient UI apps it can be a real alternative m

by ptrott2017 6y ago

Sciter is a very nice engine with a solid API/SDK and rock solid engineering behind it. For developers building efficient UI apps it can be a real alternative method to things like electron or as a lighter alternative to QT with QML script. However until now it was only available under commercial licence. Andrew Fedoniouk ( a.k.a. c-smile Sciter's original developer) has a kickstarter to fund open sourcing and supporting additional development to make it more accessible javascript developers. Learn more here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/c-smile/open-source-sciter-engine https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/c-smile/open-source-sci...

NetOpWibby 6y ago
55 hours to go and not even a third of the goal completed. I’m an optimistic guy but I don’t see this happening. EDIT: I wouldn’t mind being wrong.
- ptrott2017 6y ago
  yeah i just found the kickstarter when I was replying to this thread. Off to go and sign up for it now...
- est31 6y ago
  https://www.backerkit.com/projects/c-smile/open-source-sciter-engine https://www.backerkit.com/projects/c-smile/open-source-scite... It's a bit bleak indeed. The "open-sourcing the sciter" post [0] has gained almost no traction, news coverage [1] etc. This hn thread is the first time I heard of this kickstarter myself. I think with a bit of marketing, the goal is absolutely reachable. Also there are plenty of grants and foundations that support open source projects. It's likely that with the right application they'll donate the needed amount, but usually they work quite slowly. Likely won't happen in the remaining 53 hours. [0]: https://terrainformatica.com/2020/09/07/open-sourcing-the-sciter/ https://terrainformatica.com/2020/09/07/open-sourcing-the-sc... [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=sciter+open+source&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:m https://www.google.com/search?q=sciter+open+source&tbm=nws&s...
- true_religion 6y ago
  I don't see it happening either. 1. It's a GPL release. 2. None of the rewards are happening in some far-future date. It's all in October (of which there is 15 days left). Essentially, the proposition is that we the community pay and they will relicense it to GPL. If we pay more then they licence to BSD. Using Kickstarter to pay for essentially finished goods isn't really the point of the system, and won't really work without a marketing campaign. Now, if grassroots were behind this, then a paid marketing campaign wouldn't be necessary... but the actual customers of ScriterJS, are commercial companies already paying for a licence and won't benefit from a GPL release. Elsewhere in this thread, people talk about the goodwill the companies will gain if they pay for this project to be open sourced. However open source goodwill is only generated by popular projects, who market their sponsors. The lack of marketing around the kickstarter, would make companies think that their sponsorship won't receive much PR as well. Lastly, one must ask why the company behind ScriterJS doesn't simply open source it themselves for goodwill and let a community grow organically to support it (via donations or code)? While no one can guarantee on-going support indefinitely, the way this projects release is being positioned makes me think its going to be an abandoned code-dump. All said, it looks like a commercial company wants to dump their product. If they can get enough money, they'll open source it. If not, they'll just let long-tail revenue trickle in for the next few years to get the same sum of money.
  - Tomte 6y ago
    > Essentially, the proposition is that we the community pay and they will relicense it to GPL Yes, that's the Blender model, but unfortunately without any publicity.
- clafferty 6y ago
  Did my bit to chip in. Some hope still!
- IshKebab 6y ago
  My suspicion is because: a) It's $100k for GPL. $200k for MIT. I expect the latter is much more interesting to most people but there's no way to pledge for only that. b) It's still web based. I think the large file size of Electron apps is only part of most people here's objection to them. There's also the general slowness, jankyness, lack of coherence, bugginess etc. Still, I would have expected more interest than this.
- untog 6y ago
  I'm absolutely the target market for this (I've even downloaded Sciter and tried it out before now)... and I had no idea this Kickstarter had been made. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I wouldn't assume there's no interest out there!
- Etzos 6y ago
  It's really sad because this is the first time I heard about this campaign. Had I known earlier I would have pledged sooner and spread the word around.
ksec 6y ago
For $100K in total, a tiny marketing budget those companies could have shown some good will towards Open Source. I wonder if the author actually contacted those companies. That is less than $3K from each of those customers listed.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  Those customers probably couldn't care less about open sourcing somebody else's work.
- artiscode 6y ago
  Given the author wants to release Sciter under GPL, unless twice as many funds are raised, I fail to see the incentive for any company to fund this. GPL + commercial licensing model changes nothing for commercial product developers.
  - nly 6y ago
    It would be surprising if the companies using Sciter (Norton, Avast, ESet, BitDefender) didn't have a copy of the source code with their commercial license, and the right to ship their own patched version with their software. If the project ever fizzled away they would probably just maintain it themselves, or migrate to Electron. Actually, it's not like these AV companies are known for their high quality product, so it wouldn't surprise me if they would just let it bitrot until there are exploitable holes.
    - Rebelgecko 6y ago
      Why is sciter so popular with antivirus companies?
      - c-smile 6y ago
        For many reasons. Compact and manageable UI layer is the first. Full Sciter build for one platform/target is 50 seconds or less. Electron/Chromium builds are about tens of hours as I've been told. Yet this https://sciter.com/from-skeuomorph-to-flat-ui-evolution-of-one-application/ https://sciter.com/from-skeuomorph-to-flat-ui-evolution-of-o... is the same app that uses the same UI engine since 2007. UI maintenance all these years is the matter of updating CSS declarations. Yet you always know that it will be HTML/CSS people that can do your UI in future.
red_admiral 6y ago
This is the kind of project that I'd hope the Linux Foundation or similar could take an interest in financing too. Until, at least, all major modern OSes come with a built in scriptable headless browser engine, which would be a game-changer. Something-like-electron-or-sciter where you don't have to download the runtime for each individual application. Also, of course, not a walled garden: the windows "modern apps" store can sort of do this I think, but there are lots of good reasons not to go down that path.
- SiVal 6y ago
  "Until...all major modern OSes come with a built in scriptable headless browser engine, which would be a game-changer." Ah, yes. Internet Explorer, they called it. Built right into the OS. A game changer. Funny how the meaning of something (goodness/badness/motives/...) can change as circumstances change.
  - tomashubelbauer 6y ago
    I think for "all major modern OSS" to apply we need at least Windows and macOS support. Internet Explorer never fit this description. Edit: This comment is wrong - looks like IE did fit this description before my time. :-)
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      Internet Explorer ran on macOS back when it was relevant. It got discontinued after Safari was released. Also, Internet Explorer was ported to various Unices. It just never got ported to a Linux-kernel based OS. If software like this is FOSS, relies on open standards, and is designed architect independent it can be run on virtually anything. Including something which is rising in popularity.
      - eropple 6y ago
        Not only was there IE for Mac -- at the time, it was actually a pretty decent browser. Bit rotted over time, but there was a stretch when your choices were a really janky Netscape and IE for Mac, and the choice as I recall it was pretty easy.
sradman 6y ago
Yesterday’s HN thread SciTer, HTML/CSS Engine, May Go Open Source via Kickstarter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24786527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24786527
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Could Sciter be used as an actual web browser too? We badly need more diversity in that space...
- wtetzner 6y ago
  I'm not completely sure, but it seems like maybe Sciter is able to stay so lightweight because it implements a subset of the HTML/CSS. If not, though, that would be a pretty big deal.
sciurus 6y ago
If they're still trying to fund open-sourcing it, what is in this repo?
- millerm 6y ago
  The repo only contains binaries for Windows (no source).
resoluteteeth 6y ago
It seems like there's no way this kickstarter is going to reach it's target now unfortunately. There must be tons of companies that could benefit from this, so it's too bad that there aren't more people pledging money for the kickstarter campaign.

NetOpWibby 6y ago

55 hours to go and not even a third of the goal completed. I’m an optimistic guy but I don’t see this happening. EDIT: I wouldn’t mind being wrong.

ptrott2017 6y ago
yeah i just found the kickstarter when I was replying to this thread. Off to go and sign up for it now...
est31 6y ago
https://www.backerkit.com/projects/c-smile/open-source-sciter-engine https://www.backerkit.com/projects/c-smile/open-source-scite... It's a bit bleak indeed. The "open-sourcing the sciter" post [0] has gained almost no traction, news coverage [1] etc. This hn thread is the first time I heard of this kickstarter myself. I think with a bit of marketing, the goal is absolutely reachable. Also there are plenty of grants and foundations that support open source projects. It's likely that with the right application they'll donate the needed amount, but usually they work quite slowly. Likely won't happen in the remaining 53 hours. [0]: https://terrainformatica.com/2020/09/07/open-sourcing-the-sciter/ https://terrainformatica.com/2020/09/07/open-sourcing-the-sc... [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=sciter+open+source&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:m https://www.google.com/search?q=sciter+open+source&tbm=nws&s...
true_religion 6y ago
I don't see it happening either. 1. It's a GPL release. 2. None of the rewards are happening in some far-future date. It's all in October (of which there is 15 days left). Essentially, the proposition is that we the community pay and they will relicense it to GPL. If we pay more then they licence to BSD. Using Kickstarter to pay for essentially finished goods isn't really the point of the system, and won't really work without a marketing campaign. Now, if grassroots were behind this, then a paid marketing campaign wouldn't be necessary... but the actual customers of ScriterJS, are commercial companies already paying for a licence and won't benefit from a GPL release. Elsewhere in this thread, people talk about the goodwill the companies will gain if they pay for this project to be open sourced. However open source goodwill is only generated by popular projects, who market their sponsors. The lack of marketing around the kickstarter, would make companies think that their sponsorship won't receive much PR as well. Lastly, one must ask why the company behind ScriterJS doesn't simply open source it themselves for goodwill and let a community grow organically to support it (via donations or code)? While no one can guarantee on-going support indefinitely, the way this projects release is being positioned makes me think its going to be an abandoned code-dump. All said, it looks like a commercial company wants to dump their product. If they can get enough money, they'll open source it. If not, they'll just let long-tail revenue trickle in for the next few years to get the same sum of money.
- Tomte 6y ago
  > Essentially, the proposition is that we the community pay and they will relicense it to GPL Yes, that's the Blender model, but unfortunately without any publicity.
clafferty 6y ago
Did my bit to chip in. Some hope still!
IshKebab 6y ago
My suspicion is because: a) It's $100k for GPL. $200k for MIT. I expect the latter is much more interesting to most people but there's no way to pledge for only that. b) It's still web based. I think the large file size of Electron apps is only part of most people here's objection to them. There's also the general slowness, jankyness, lack of coherence, bugginess etc. Still, I would have expected more interest than this.
untog 6y ago
I'm absolutely the target market for this (I've even downloaded Sciter and tried it out before now)... and I had no idea this Kickstarter had been made. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I wouldn't assume there's no interest out there!
Etzos 6y ago
It's really sad because this is the first time I heard about this campaign. Had I known earlier I would have pledged sooner and spread the word around.

ksec 6y ago

For $100K in total, a tiny marketing budget those companies could have shown some good will towards Open Source. I wonder if the author actually contacted those companies. That is less than $3K from each of those customers listed.

dmitriid 6y ago
Those customers probably couldn't care less about open sourcing somebody else's work.
artiscode 6y ago
Given the author wants to release Sciter under GPL, unless twice as many funds are raised, I fail to see the incentive for any company to fund this. GPL + commercial licensing model changes nothing for commercial product developers.
- nly 6y ago
  It would be surprising if the companies using Sciter (Norton, Avast, ESet, BitDefender) didn't have a copy of the source code with their commercial license, and the right to ship their own patched version with their software. If the project ever fizzled away they would probably just maintain it themselves, or migrate to Electron. Actually, it's not like these AV companies are known for their high quality product, so it wouldn't surprise me if they would just let it bitrot until there are exploitable holes.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Why is sciter so popular with antivirus companies?
    - c-smile 6y ago
      For many reasons. Compact and manageable UI layer is the first. Full Sciter build for one platform/target is 50 seconds or less. Electron/Chromium builds are about tens of hours as I've been told. Yet this https://sciter.com/from-skeuomorph-to-flat-ui-evolution-of-one-application/ https://sciter.com/from-skeuomorph-to-flat-ui-evolution-of-o... is the same app that uses the same UI engine since 2007. UI maintenance all these years is the matter of updating CSS declarations. Yet you always know that it will be HTML/CSS people that can do your UI in future.

red_admiral 6y ago

This is the kind of project that I'd hope the Linux Foundation or similar could take an interest in financing too. Until, at least, all major modern OSes come with a built in scriptable headless browser engine, which would be a game-changer. Something-like-electron-or-sciter where you don't have to download the runtime for each individual application. Also, of course, not a walled garden: the windows "modern apps" store can sort of do this I think, but there are lots of good reasons not to go down that path.

SiVal 6y ago
"Until...all major modern OSes come with a built in scriptable headless browser engine, which would be a game-changer." Ah, yes. Internet Explorer, they called it. Built right into the OS. A game changer. Funny how the meaning of something (goodness/badness/motives/...) can change as circumstances change.
- tomashubelbauer 6y ago
  I think for "all major modern OSS" to apply we need at least Windows and macOS support. Internet Explorer never fit this description. Edit: This comment is wrong - looks like IE did fit this description before my time. :-)
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    Internet Explorer ran on macOS back when it was relevant. It got discontinued after Safari was released. Also, Internet Explorer was ported to various Unices. It just never got ported to a Linux-kernel based OS. If software like this is FOSS, relies on open standards, and is designed architect independent it can be run on virtually anything. Including something which is rising in popularity.
    - eropple 6y ago
      Not only was there IE for Mac -- at the time, it was actually a pretty decent browser. Bit rotted over time, but there was a stretch when your choices were a really janky Netscape and IE for Mac, and the choice as I recall it was pretty easy.

sradman 6y ago

Yesterday’s HN thread SciTer, HTML/CSS Engine, May Go Open Source via Kickstarter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24786527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24786527

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Could Sciter be used as an actual web browser too? We badly need more diversity in that space...

wtetzner 6y ago
I'm not completely sure, but it seems like maybe Sciter is able to stay so lightweight because it implements a subset of the HTML/CSS. If not, though, that would be a pretty big deal.

sciurus 6y ago

If they're still trying to fund open-sourcing it, what is in this repo?

millerm 6y ago
The repo only contains binaries for Windows (no source).

resoluteteeth 6y ago

It seems like there's no way this kickstarter is going to reach it's target now unfortunately. There must be tons of companies that could benefit from this, so it's too bad that there aren't more people pledging money for the kickstarter campaign.