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They’ve also innovated a fully green business model - selling tax credits as consistent, bonafide revenue.

jjeaff 6y ago
Is it fully green? Or are they trading polluting heavy metals and chemicals and co2 from mining operations for co2 produced from internal combustion engines? It seems like they are externalizing their environmental impact, like a traditional multi-national but with the added business model of selling credits earned from selling electrics. Or am I wrong? Is the pollution created by these huge batteries being netted out from their credits?
- nickik 6y ago
  Pretty much all serious studies on this show that over the lifetime you easily beat ICE. And only because the not so optimized yet supply lines is it even a question. The thing is, you need to mine nickel/graphite once and then cycle it 5000 times. If you compare this to the equivalent driving distance in gas its not remotely close. Also, all of these batteries will be recycled, so it only needs to be mined once. The credits he refers to are fuel efficiency standards that manufactures need to have across their fleet.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    Yes, I understand that over the lifetime, electrics beat ice. But does that calculation include the fuel efficiency credits. Or probably more directly, do the fuel efficiency credits take into account the co2 emitted for building the battery in your electric? It's probably just looking at fuel efficiency.
    - nickik 6y ago
      The credits are about the efficiency of the car, it does not take into account production. So I guess one could argue EV are getting an even better deal.
nickik 6y ago
Is it Tesla fault that other manufactures are dumb? Every company plays with the same regulatory framework. People here want more regulation to force companies to go green but then relentlessly clown companies that play well within these regulation. Tesla was well on its way to profitability, and would have easily been without Corona. They managed to make a little profit anyway because the used credit sales. Even without Credits they would have had impressive results given the global situation. In Q3 Tesla will make a profit way beyond credits and then this 'lets distract from reality' story-line can die too. And in Q4 people who made this argument will really start to look incredibly dumb. Tesla is making money because they have really fantastic margin on their cars and have really good ROI but instead of talking about that everybody deflected and made fun of them that they made profit 'only' because of credits.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  I don't get it on one side you got the people that think Musk is god. Mention to them that there are a lot engineers and techs doing the heavy lifting and they get really really mad. Then you got the other side that thinks Tesla is a grift. And mention that it appears they've been making a small profit on every unit shipped and those guys lose it on you. Profit on units shipped is the mark of going business. Means the investors cash is being spent on building out the business not subsidizing a money losing business.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Well isn't it pretty much the same with all other discussions on the Internet. No one wants to discuss, they just want to make a point. It is similar situation with Apple's App Store. You see people, even on HN defending Apple, saying it is Apple's Platform they can do whatever they want. Which is fine as a statement, but without really ever addressing the question raised by the counter party.
- charliemil4 6y ago
  Nope -- I think it's brilliant. So many 'unrealized revenue' sources to dip into for any Q.

Is it fully green? Or are they trading polluting heavy metals and chemicals and co2 from mining operations for co2 produced from internal combustion engines? It seems like they are externalizing their environmental impact, like a traditional multi-national but with the added business model of selling credits earned from selling electrics. Or am I wrong? Is the pollution created by these huge batteries being netted out from their credits?

nickik 6y ago
Pretty much all serious studies on this show that over the lifetime you easily beat ICE. And only because the not so optimized yet supply lines is it even a question. The thing is, you need to mine nickel/graphite once and then cycle it 5000 times. If you compare this to the equivalent driving distance in gas its not remotely close. Also, all of these batteries will be recycled, so it only needs to be mined once. The credits he refers to are fuel efficiency standards that manufactures need to have across their fleet.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Yes, I understand that over the lifetime, electrics beat ice. But does that calculation include the fuel efficiency credits. Or probably more directly, do the fuel efficiency credits take into account the co2 emitted for building the battery in your electric? It's probably just looking at fuel efficiency.
  - nickik 6y ago
    The credits are about the efficiency of the car, it does not take into account production. So I guess one could argue EV are getting an even better deal.

nickik 6y ago

Is it Tesla fault that other manufactures are dumb? Every company plays with the same regulatory framework. People here want more regulation to force companies to go green but then relentlessly clown companies that play well within these regulation. Tesla was well on its way to profitability, and would have easily been without Corona. They managed to make a little profit anyway because the used credit sales. Even without Credits they would have had impressive results given the global situation. In Q3 Tesla will make a profit way beyond credits and then this 'lets distract from reality' story-line can die too. And in Q4 people who made this argument will really start to look incredibly dumb. Tesla is making money because they have really fantastic margin on their cars and have really good ROI but instead of talking about that everybody deflected and made fun of them that they made profit 'only' because of credits.

Gibbon1 6y ago
I don't get it on one side you got the people that think Musk is god. Mention to them that there are a lot engineers and techs doing the heavy lifting and they get really really mad. Then you got the other side that thinks Tesla is a grift. And mention that it appears they've been making a small profit on every unit shipped and those guys lose it on you. Profit on units shipped is the mark of going business. Means the investors cash is being spent on building out the business not subsidizing a money losing business.
- ksec 6y ago
  Well isn't it pretty much the same with all other discussions on the Internet. No one wants to discuss, they just want to make a point. It is similar situation with Apple's App Store. You see people, even on HN defending Apple, saying it is Apple's Platform they can do whatever they want. Which is fine as a statement, but without really ever addressing the question raised by the counter party.
charliemil4 6y ago
Nope -- I think it's brilliant. So many 'unrealized revenue' sources to dip into for any Q.