5 ms·

I don't personally agree with banning an app for that reason, but "indecent" is a proper adjective for a good chunk of the content you see on TikTok. Sometimes

by afwe 6y ago

I don't personally agree with banning an app for that reason, but "indecent" is a proper adjective for a good chunk of the content you see on TikTok. Sometimes I wonder if bombarding people in the west with this kind of content is a strategy from China, because surely they don't allow such videos in the mainland.

anonymfus 6y ago
> Sometimes I wonder if bombarding people with this kind of content is a strategy from China, because surely they don't allow such videos in the mainland. You basically followed the tracks of the thought process of some vatniks here in Russia who believe that there is no censorship in Russia because public TV channels show erotics and gore here. The idea that if somebody has power of censorship they will necessary use it for public good is absurd.
- ptx 6y ago
  The Chinese communist party does censor that kind of thing though (in addition to politically inconvenient facts and opinions) to enforce what they believe are good morals for the public good.
082349872349872 6y ago
For a good chunk of the content you see on TikTok, maybe, but not that I see. (I did just see uncovered female hair in one video though, so maybe we have differing standards of "indecent"?) Nietzsche was prescient about the interwebs: "... if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." Detim to vide fit, fit vide to oso. (while you watch the feed, the feed watches you.)
- OJFord 6y ago
  I've never used it - what governs what you see vs. what GP sees, 'following' different people as on Twitter?
  - tonyarkles 6y ago
    This is based on my admittedly little experience with TikTok, but it seems like they do a ton of analytics based on how long you stay on a given video. Pretty sure every action you do plays into The Algorithm. There’s jokes about there being different TikToks based on this. Like “gay TikTok”, “farmer TikTok”, etc. As a point of reference, TikTok for the occasional time I use it will be a mixture of: - farming / horses / archery - construction workers and mechanics either doing really sketchy stuff or providing really useful stuff - two strippers who tell funny/cringey stories from work (I don’t follow them, they just keep showing up and telling ridiculous stories, which I listen to, which reinforces The Algorithm)
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      I hope that first category has plenty of archers on horses shooting at targets on round bales? Bonus Scyth: https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43dc-bc46-ed549fd6fa76.jpg https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43d... (The bow carrier is a thing because stringing a 25 lb bow from the saddle works, but stringing a recurve is not so trivial. She doesn't have a thumb ring, but I don't know if the artist knows any better than I do by whom and when those were used on the steppe.)
- nullsense 6y ago
  So that's what Nietzsche was talking about. Good spotting.
- afwe 6y ago
  If I wanted to see naked women on tiktok, I would not complain about it. If you make a new profile on tiktok (or just download the app) you will see a few women in borderline pornographic videos. That's all it took for me to remove the app, which means I did not give the app much time to learn about my tastes.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Maybe because I use tiktok.com? I currently see: 1. bun in a watermelon swing. 2. dogs in headscarves listening to something bollywood-like 3. a train (with unusual horn, or maybe that's just a train-horn sounding soundtrack) 4. someone playing with a horizontally wiping sampler 5. someone pretending to demonstrate internet connectivity in different countries. (if true, albania is worse than turkey?) of which the only indecency I can think of is "representational art" and I guess people who care about that surf with lynx. ==== At a stretch, the best I can do is view #1 and think "My anaconda don't want none / Unless you've got buns, hun." and even that fails due to the singular, not plural, bun. Incidentally, was it from HN that I learned about the very small-audience potential nightclub use of the International Code of Signals? Foxtrot: I am disabled; communicate with me. (aka The Sorority Mating Call, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737386 ) Quebec: My vessel is healthy Tango: I am engaged in pair trawling One might even imagine conversations, along the lines of Wuthering Heights by semaphore: beginning of the evening A) Yankee, Zulu, Kilo: I am dragging my anchor. I require a tug. I wish to communicate with you. B) November, Xray: Negative. Stop carrying out your intentions and watch for my signals. end of the evening B) Papa: All hands report on board. Putting out to sea. A) Charlie: Affirmative. at B's apartment B) Mike Alfa Bravo: I request you to make rendezvous in position indicated. A) Alfa: Diver down. B) Golf: I require a pilot. A) Charlie: Affirmative. B) Hotel, Sierra: I have a pilot on board. I am operating astern propulsion. after the walk of shame A) India Tango, Alfa November: I am on fire. I need a doctor. Bonus wooden ships: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301933
- smusamashah 6y ago
  FYI uncovered hair are absolutely not a problem in Pakistan. Just look up for any Pakistani TV show, see the audience or anyone. I have mostly seen extremely stupid videos on TikTok and get amazed how people make this stuff.
0xdeadb00f 6y ago
I know someone who watches tiktok with their wife exclusively, because they enjoy watching it together like you would TV, simple as that. But they still always get the odd "indecent" post.
Firebrand 6y ago
This is why the U.S. government is so concerned about TikTok being used as a propaganda tool by the Chinese government: https://m.tiktok.com/v/6880901448872234245.html https://m.tiktok.com/v/6880901448872234245.html Make a video about disaffected military enlistees go viral on an app filled with impressionable young teens and it’ll discourage them enlisting in the future. Then the algorithm drip feeds them more anti-American content until they become more jaded about the country as a whole. There’s certainly a discussion to be had about the way the U.S. treats its service members, but I just don’t trust TikTok being the impetus of it.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  If they go down that route, doesn't that legitimize other countries banning any app for 'national security' reasons? A lot of people are bitter about China banning Facebook and Google, and support the banning of Tiktok in order to take revenge, but what about the implications of it?
  - jdeibele 6y ago
    If India, France, Tunisia, Zimbabwe and many others all have their own home-grown version of Facebook, is that a bad thing? It would reflect the local culture and keep the advertising revenue in the same country. There have been few, if any, improvements on the user side of Facebook since inception. All their attention is focused on driving engagement and advertising revenue.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      I am not saying that having local versions of apps is a bad thing. I am just annoyed that so many people yell 'but China is not playing fair, so it's revenge time' at the same time. It's both disingenuous and pure spite.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  As an impressionable teenager my friends and I watched The Hunger, a nearly six thousand second movie, but (as far as I know) none of us ever became lesbian vampires. In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago that I even learned of the 1872 context, thanks to a second-world remake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla
FooBarWidget 6y ago
Why should Tiktok follow Chinese law when operating outside China? Were this about any other subject, then restricting the amount of content to Chinese standards would make people scream 'censorship'. Shouldn't Tiktok follow the local laws of the user's country? And if so, doesn't that mean that, if we reject censorship on ideological grounds, that Tiktok should allow all content permitted by local laws, rather than a subset of it?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
simion314 6y ago
The explanation is much more simpler and clear, some categories of videos are more popular then others, is "indecent" videos are boosted by the algorithm is because they are popular. Similar effect with thumbnails on youtube and clickbait on articles, there is no evil conspiracy except the holly Dollar.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  One of the fun subplots in Gravy Planet (1952) is how Fowler Schocken is the ad agency for the upper consumers and its competitor Taunton for the lower consumers. (with all the various product cameos, our narrator has many occasions to demonstrate brand loyalty) I don't remember if the distinction was ever explicitly in there or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if Taunton aims for the Page Three level while Fowler aims for a more ambiguous "Does she... or doesn't she? Only her hairdresser knows for sure." (for Fowler's attributed copy, anyway. We know their whisper campaign material includes dirty limericks: https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1952-06/Galaxy_1952_06#page/n47/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1952-06/Galaxy_195... )
cheweh 6y ago
>bombarding people in the west with this kind of content is a strategy from China This is the premise of Arthur C. Clarke's short story, "I Remember Babylon" (which was first published in Playboy in 1960). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Remember_Babylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Remember_Babylon
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  If that had really happened, that premise would have explained the sino-soviet split. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 (warning for the rural US, or for rural PK: female nipples) I don't know much of what the TV commentor is on about with regard to the French Quarter, but I'm pretty sure I heard "exploitation" and "bourgeois" in there.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    They show a clip of Jim Garrison (JFK conspiracy theorist) being interviewed soon after
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      According to https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/26/trump-delays-release-of-some-jfk-files-until-2021-bowing-to-national-security-concerns/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/26... JFK conspiracies should have a new drop in about a year. Thanks for the local colour. Is the Tulane Card still accepted for drive-thru daquiris? Edit: from wikipedia "Garrison explains that cover stories were circulated in an attempt to blame the killing on the Cubans and the Mafia but he blames the conspiracy to kill the president firmly on the CIA who wanted to continue the Cold War." I don't know about CIA specifically (nor do I know the Mafia be completely distinct from them), but there is the coincidence that Kennedy and Khrushchev, having averted global thermonuclear war together, soon after were both cancelled. Edit2: as long as I'm already thinking of conspiracy theories, sometime I'll have to rewatch Cool Hand Luke to see if a valid retcon would be that Boss Godfrey doesn't have much to say because his name (in northern italy, where he served under Karl Wolff) was Marco Gottifredi, and he changed it when he escaped down a ratline at the end of the war to the US south. But he's laconic because his english still isn't so good.
jaflo 6y ago
I’m curious as to what type of content you refer to as being indecent. Is this adult/risqué content? I’m unclear about the connection to strategy of bombarding the west then, I feel like there are plenty of other places to find such content.
vladvasiliu 6y ago
Is this actually that much different from Facebook / Instagram? I've only used tiktok once for like 10 minutes just to see why everyone was talking about it. I also don't often use facebook, so my experience may be somewhat biased. I know it's possible to curate the IG feed, but in my experience going on the "search" page (or whatever it's called, the one with the magnifying glass) I'm bombarded with scantly clad women. I don't follow anyone who posts pictures even remotely related to this.
metalgearsolid3 6y ago
Have you heard of the American TV Show Jackass? Debauchery and indecency is well celebrated in American culture. Regardless of "strategy", algorithmic content delivery is going to be used for propaganda, period. What's really fascinating is it kind of happened over night, when Instagram and Twitter were updated to not display content in chronological order. Personally, I took for granted how much bigger than a "UX change" this was.

by afwe 6y ago

anonymfus 6y ago

> Sometimes I wonder if bombarding people with this kind of content is a strategy from China, because surely they don't allow such videos in the mainland. You basically followed the tracks of the thought process of some vatniks here in Russia who believe that there is no censorship in Russia because public TV channels show erotics and gore here. The idea that if somebody has power of censorship they will necessary use it for public good is absurd.

ptx 6y ago
The Chinese communist party does censor that kind of thing though (in addition to politically inconvenient facts and opinions) to enforce what they believe are good morals for the public good.

082349872349872 6y ago

For a good chunk of the content you see on TikTok, maybe, but not that I see. (I did just see uncovered female hair in one video though, so maybe we have differing standards of "indecent"?) Nietzsche was prescient about the interwebs: "... if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." Detim to vide fit, fit vide to oso. (while you watch the feed, the feed watches you.)

OJFord 6y ago
I've never used it - what governs what you see vs. what GP sees, 'following' different people as on Twitter?
- tonyarkles 6y ago
  This is based on my admittedly little experience with TikTok, but it seems like they do a ton of analytics based on how long you stay on a given video. Pretty sure every action you do plays into The Algorithm. There’s jokes about there being different TikToks based on this. Like “gay TikTok”, “farmer TikTok”, etc. As a point of reference, TikTok for the occasional time I use it will be a mixture of: - farming / horses / archery - construction workers and mechanics either doing really sketchy stuff or providing really useful stuff - two strippers who tell funny/cringey stories from work (I don’t follow them, they just keep showing up and telling ridiculous stories, which I listen to, which reinforces The Algorithm)
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    I hope that first category has plenty of archers on horses shooting at targets on round bales? Bonus Scyth: https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43dc-bc46-ed549fd6fa76.jpg https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43d... (The bow carrier is a thing because stringing a 25 lb bow from the saddle works, but stringing a recurve is not so trivial. She doesn't have a thumb ring, but I don't know if the artist knows any better than I do by whom and when those were used on the steppe.)
nullsense 6y ago
So that's what Nietzsche was talking about. Good spotting.
afwe 6y ago
If I wanted to see naked women on tiktok, I would not complain about it. If you make a new profile on tiktok (or just download the app) you will see a few women in borderline pornographic videos. That's all it took for me to remove the app, which means I did not give the app much time to learn about my tastes.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Maybe because I use tiktok.com? I currently see: 1. bun in a watermelon swing. 2. dogs in headscarves listening to something bollywood-like 3. a train (with unusual horn, or maybe that's just a train-horn sounding soundtrack) 4. someone playing with a horizontally wiping sampler 5. someone pretending to demonstrate internet connectivity in different countries. (if true, albania is worse than turkey?) of which the only indecency I can think of is "representational art" and I guess people who care about that surf with lynx. ==== At a stretch, the best I can do is view #1 and think "My anaconda don't want none / Unless you've got buns, hun." and even that fails due to the singular, not plural, bun. Incidentally, was it from HN that I learned about the very small-audience potential nightclub use of the International Code of Signals? Foxtrot: I am disabled; communicate with me. (aka The Sorority Mating Call, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737386 ) Quebec: My vessel is healthy Tango: I am engaged in pair trawling One might even imagine conversations, along the lines of Wuthering Heights by semaphore: beginning of the evening A) Yankee, Zulu, Kilo: I am dragging my anchor. I require a tug. I wish to communicate with you. B) November, Xray: Negative. Stop carrying out your intentions and watch for my signals. end of the evening B) Papa: All hands report on board. Putting out to sea. A) Charlie: Affirmative. at B's apartment B) Mike Alfa Bravo: I request you to make rendezvous in position indicated. A) Alfa: Diver down. B) Golf: I require a pilot. A) Charlie: Affirmative. B) Hotel, Sierra: I have a pilot on board. I am operating astern propulsion. after the walk of shame A) India Tango, Alfa November: I am on fire. I need a doctor. Bonus wooden ships: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301933
smusamashah 6y ago
FYI uncovered hair are absolutely not a problem in Pakistan. Just look up for any Pakistani TV show, see the audience or anyone. I have mostly seen extremely stupid videos on TikTok and get amazed how people make this stuff.

0xdeadb00f 6y ago

I know someone who watches tiktok with their wife exclusively, because they enjoy watching it together like you would TV, simple as that. But they still always get the odd "indecent" post.

Firebrand 6y ago

This is why the U.S. government is so concerned about TikTok being used as a propaganda tool by the Chinese government: https://m.tiktok.com/v/6880901448872234245.html https://m.tiktok.com/v/6880901448872234245.html Make a video about disaffected military enlistees go viral on an app filled with impressionable young teens and it’ll discourage them enlisting in the future. Then the algorithm drip feeds them more anti-American content until they become more jaded about the country as a whole. There’s certainly a discussion to be had about the way the U.S. treats its service members, but I just don’t trust TikTok being the impetus of it.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
If they go down that route, doesn't that legitimize other countries banning any app for 'national security' reasons? A lot of people are bitter about China banning Facebook and Google, and support the banning of Tiktok in order to take revenge, but what about the implications of it?
- jdeibele 6y ago
  If India, France, Tunisia, Zimbabwe and many others all have their own home-grown version of Facebook, is that a bad thing? It would reflect the local culture and keep the advertising revenue in the same country. There have been few, if any, improvements on the user side of Facebook since inception. All their attention is focused on driving engagement and advertising revenue.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I am not saying that having local versions of apps is a bad thing. I am just annoyed that so many people yell 'but China is not playing fair, so it's revenge time' at the same time. It's both disingenuous and pure spite.
082349872349872 6y ago
As an impressionable teenager my friends and I watched The Hunger, a nearly six thousand second movie, but (as far as I know) none of us ever became lesbian vampires. In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago that I even learned of the 1872 context, thanks to a second-world remake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Why should Tiktok follow Chinese law when operating outside China? Were this about any other subject, then restricting the amount of content to Chinese standards would make people scream 'censorship'. Shouldn't Tiktok follow the local laws of the user's country? And if so, doesn't that mean that, if we reject censorship on ideological grounds, that Tiktok should allow all content permitted by local laws, rather than a subset of it?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

simion314 6y ago

The explanation is much more simpler and clear, some categories of videos are more popular then others, is "indecent" videos are boosted by the algorithm is because they are popular. Similar effect with thumbnails on youtube and clickbait on articles, there is no evil conspiracy except the holly Dollar.

082349872349872 6y ago
One of the fun subplots in Gravy Planet (1952) is how Fowler Schocken is the ad agency for the upper consumers and its competitor Taunton for the lower consumers. (with all the various product cameos, our narrator has many occasions to demonstrate brand loyalty) I don't remember if the distinction was ever explicitly in there or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if Taunton aims for the Page Three level while Fowler aims for a more ambiguous "Does she... or doesn't she? Only her hairdresser knows for sure." (for Fowler's attributed copy, anyway. We know their whisper campaign material includes dirty limericks: https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1952-06/Galaxy_1952_06#page/n47/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1952-06/Galaxy_195... )

cheweh 6y ago

>bombarding people in the west with this kind of content is a strategy from China This is the premise of Arthur C. Clarke's short story, "I Remember Babylon" (which was first published in Playboy in 1960). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Remember_Babylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Remember_Babylon

082349872349872 6y ago
If that had really happened, that premise would have explained the sino-soviet split. In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 (warning for the rural US, or for rural PK: female nipples) I don't know much of what the TV commentor is on about with regard to the French Quarter, but I'm pretty sure I heard "exploitation" and "bourgeois" in there.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  They show a clip of Jim Garrison (JFK conspiracy theorist) being interviewed soon after
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    According to https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/26/trump-delays-release-of-some-jfk-files-until-2021-bowing-to-national-security-concerns/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/26... JFK conspiracies should have a new drop in about a year. Thanks for the local colour. Is the Tulane Card still accepted for drive-thru daquiris? Edit: from wikipedia "Garrison explains that cover stories were circulated in an attempt to blame the killing on the Cubans and the Mafia but he blames the conspiracy to kill the president firmly on the CIA who wanted to continue the Cold War." I don't know about CIA specifically (nor do I know the Mafia be completely distinct from them), but there is the coincidence that Kennedy and Khrushchev, having averted global thermonuclear war together, soon after were both cancelled. Edit2: as long as I'm already thinking of conspiracy theories, sometime I'll have to rewatch Cool Hand Luke to see if a valid retcon would be that Boss Godfrey doesn't have much to say because his name (in northern italy, where he served under Karl Wolff) was Marco Gottifredi, and he changed it when he escaped down a ratline at the end of the war to the US south. But he's laconic because his english still isn't so good.

jaflo 6y ago

I’m curious as to what type of content you refer to as being indecent. Is this adult/risqué content? I’m unclear about the connection to strategy of bombarding the west then, I feel like there are plenty of other places to find such content.

vladvasiliu 6y ago

Is this actually that much different from Facebook / Instagram? I've only used tiktok once for like 10 minutes just to see why everyone was talking about it. I also don't often use facebook, so my experience may be somewhat biased. I know it's possible to curate the IG feed, but in my experience going on the "search" page (or whatever it's called, the one with the magnifying glass) I'm bombarded with scantly clad women. I don't follow anyone who posts pictures even remotely related to this.

metalgearsolid3 6y ago

Have you heard of the American TV Show Jackass? Debauchery and indecency is well celebrated in American culture. Regardless of "strategy", algorithmic content delivery is going to be used for propaganda, period. What's really fascinating is it kind of happened over night, when Instagram and Twitter were updated to not display content in chronological order. Personally, I took for granted how much bigger than a "UX change" this was.