7 ms·

They're worth a good bit less than single-digit millions. For context, you can pick up an airworthy 15 year old 777 right now for ~5 million dollars. Last time

by 112012123 6y ago

They're worth a good bit less than single-digit millions. For context, you can pick up an airworthy 15 year old 777 right now for ~5 million dollars. Last time I spoke with a widebody broker a few months ago, an old 747 with no equipment was a smidge less than $100k. Though with COVID, airworthy 747 freighters are 30-50 million....

tyingq 6y ago
There's likely some middle ground. Like a 747 that is ALMOST due a heavy check and mx cycle and very close to end of life.
MichaelZuo 6y ago
Yikes, that’s even greater depreciation than I thought. Even then that 777 seems almost too good to be true with the current fuel prices, do you have the link or the details on it?
- 112012123 6y ago
  Afraid no link - I'm actually in the process of buying 777s right now at a bit less than that (and then hopefully flipping for 5 apiece). Fresh out of a heavy C check, too. But if you're curious re:prices, you can call the dealer listed on Controller.com as selling a 777. He's actually got several for sale in that neighborhood (and is super friendly, too - Eric).
  - MichaelZuo 6y ago
    Thanks for the info. Sounds like you got a great deal on those 777s. How much effort does it take to go through one of those flips? I imagine relocation and storage might be a hassle depending on where they’re at.
    - 112012123 6y ago
      More complicated than buying a used car, but not horrible. The biggest issue is getting seller alignment. On the cash front, ferry flights to the US are the biggest expense by far. A 777 burns ~$10,000 in fuel per hour, so positioning from (say) Asia to a boneyard in California adds up quickly... with crew, ferry insurance, landing fees & sundries you end up at $200-$250k. Parking runs around $3-5k per month in the desert, too.
      - disillusioned 6y ago
        This is a stupid question, but is there any way to monetize a ferry flight like that? Could you still bring along some cargo, or would insurance or increased fuel cost (or perhaps lack of airworthiness for cargo?) make it not worth it? I figure if you're starting at, say, $150k to ferry it, might as well fill it with some junk.
        112012123 6y ago
        That is an excellent question - and one that I don't know the answer to. It's something we're looking into. Incidentally though, the FAA minimum liability coverage for a widebody is $750 million, and the policies I've seen do allow for cargo onboard (though not passengers).
        noja 6y ago
        Why is parking in the desert so expensive? Security/insurance? Is the sand bad for the plane?
        gonesilent 6y ago
        Location location location?
        Scoundreller 6y ago
        My guess is that it used to be cheap, but now you’re paying for somewhere with a runway that has space. Then there’s still some maintenance tasks that may or may not be included.
  - smabie 6y ago
    Who do you flip to? Like what do they want to do with it? Also, is it possible to buy non-airworthy ones and fix them up and sell them as air worthy ones? Or is it too expensive?
eloff 6y ago
This is why people buy them and turn them into eclectic houses. It's a fun idea. I'd never be able to sell my wife on it, but the boy in me likes it.
- tyingq 6y ago
  ~19 feet wide by ~12 feet high sure beats a used shipping container at 7' 8" wide x 7' 10" high, despite the ovalish shape. Probably terrible to hire some pilot driver service to move it about though, even if it is just the fuselage.
  - megablast 6y ago
    Or a boat, where 1000s of people live. Dry comfortably.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    The people who tried to haul the carcass of a 747 to Burning Man discovered how difficult it is to coordinate anything that is such an oversized load, on public highways. Most of the places I can think of that I could get local government permission, and buy cheap land, to put a 747 house in place... Have a near 1:1 venn diagram overlap with places that might have a half mile dirt driveway with trees on both sides, where it would be difficult to get a truck and traditional dimension single-wide mobile home into, nevermind a 747.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      Yes. I imagine just getting someone to cut off the fuel-tanks-througout wings is a challenge. Moving it afterwards is likely very hard.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        It's just a kerosene/diesel tank (jet fuel is basically kerosene or diesel depending on grade) an aluminum one at that. As far as cutting up fuel tanks goes it doesn't get any easier. Though that won't anyone you hire from trying to screw you on price "because fuel".
ineedasername 6y ago
Well, you know what they say: The two happiest days of your life are the day you buy a broken down widebody 747, and the day you blow it up.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  This made me laugh. Thank you.
nathan_f77 6y ago
Wow, I would have never guessed that! That makes me think that it might be fun to buy a piece of land and live inside an old 747. I found this video where someone is living inside a Boeing 727: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iat-WgSvGME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iat-WgSvGME Here's another person living in a 727: https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=rKm5oF2p-II https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=rKm5oF2p-II This one has a much nicer interior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwLlI9abgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwLlI9abgU According to one of the comments on the first video, they spent 120k on the plane, and another 100k to move it to the forest. I would probably want to spend another ~300k for renovations and everything else (proper foundation, shower, kitchen, water and sewer lines, etc. etc.) It's not cheap, but that's a lot cheaper than I was expecting. Especially compared to the average house in an expensive city. I think it might also be a lot more fun than living in a "tiny house". I recently read this "Why We Don't Like Our Underground House" article that was posted on HN: https://dengarden.com/misc/The-Pitfalls-of-an-Underground-House https://dengarden.com/misc/The-Pitfalls-of-an-Underground-Ho... That was a reminder that doing something unconventional can be risky and cause lots of unexpected problems. So it would probably be a good idea to also spend a lot of money on architects and engineers to make sure that everything is done properly and there's no surprises.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > Wow, I would have never guessed that! Airliners are merely business tools - operators have no romance for any plane. If a 777 is even 2% more efficient than a 747, the 747 is grounded and chopped up. The related factors are that 4 engines is more maintenance than 2 engines, the classic 747 is no longer certified for passenger use in the USA (wiring and fuel-tank inerting ADs), and ETOPS allows twin-engine flight on almost all commercially-viable oceanic routes. (ETOPS makes me nervous af.) Source: commercially-rated airplane pilot.
  - mjg59 6y ago
    > ETOPS makes me nervous af The only case I can think of where an ETOPS flight had both engines fail due to something other than fuel exhaustion was BA38, and it's hard to say a quad jet would have managed better there. I can understand the gut feeling that the safety factor has been reduced, but given several decades without horror stories is it really still something to be nervous about?
tus88 6y ago
Yeah but what's the insurance bill...
stanfordkid 6y ago
Steven Spielberg used an old 747 for War of the worlds and the set is still on the tram tour at Universal Studios. Apparently the airplane itself was free, but it cost $250k to transport it to the location of filming!
lostlogin 6y ago
Are you able to explain what your line of work is?

tyingq 6y ago

There's likely some middle ground. Like a 747 that is ALMOST due a heavy check and mx cycle and very close to end of life.

MichaelZuo 6y ago

Yikes, that’s even greater depreciation than I thought. Even then that 777 seems almost too good to be true with the current fuel prices, do you have the link or the details on it?

112012123 6y ago
Afraid no link - I'm actually in the process of buying 777s right now at a bit less than that (and then hopefully flipping for 5 apiece). Fresh out of a heavy C check, too. But if you're curious re:prices, you can call the dealer listed on Controller.com as selling a 777. He's actually got several for sale in that neighborhood (and is super friendly, too - Eric).
- MichaelZuo 6y ago
  Thanks for the info. Sounds like you got a great deal on those 777s. How much effort does it take to go through one of those flips? I imagine relocation and storage might be a hassle depending on where they’re at.
  - 112012123 6y ago
    More complicated than buying a used car, but not horrible. The biggest issue is getting seller alignment. On the cash front, ferry flights to the US are the biggest expense by far. A 777 burns ~$10,000 in fuel per hour, so positioning from (say) Asia to a boneyard in California adds up quickly... with crew, ferry insurance, landing fees & sundries you end up at $200-$250k. Parking runs around $3-5k per month in the desert, too.
    - disillusioned 6y ago
      This is a stupid question, but is there any way to monetize a ferry flight like that? Could you still bring along some cargo, or would insurance or increased fuel cost (or perhaps lack of airworthiness for cargo?) make it not worth it? I figure if you're starting at, say, $150k to ferry it, might as well fill it with some junk.
      - 112012123 6y ago
        That is an excellent question - and one that I don't know the answer to. It's something we're looking into. Incidentally though, the FAA minimum liability coverage for a widebody is $750 million, and the policies I've seen do allow for cargo onboard (though not passengers).
        noja 6y ago
        Why is parking in the desert so expensive? Security/insurance? Is the sand bad for the plane?
        gonesilent 6y ago
        Location location location?
        Scoundreller 6y ago
        My guess is that it used to be cheap, but now you’re paying for somewhere with a runway that has space. Then there’s still some maintenance tasks that may or may not be included.
- smabie 6y ago
  Who do you flip to? Like what do they want to do with it? Also, is it possible to buy non-airworthy ones and fix them up and sell them as air worthy ones? Or is it too expensive?

eloff 6y ago

This is why people buy them and turn them into eclectic houses. It's a fun idea. I'd never be able to sell my wife on it, but the boy in me likes it.

tyingq 6y ago
~19 feet wide by ~12 feet high sure beats a used shipping container at 7' 8" wide x 7' 10" high, despite the ovalish shape. Probably terrible to hire some pilot driver service to move it about though, even if it is just the fuselage.
- megablast 6y ago
  Or a boat, where 1000s of people live. Dry comfortably.
- walrus01 6y ago
  The people who tried to haul the carcass of a 747 to Burning Man discovered how difficult it is to coordinate anything that is such an oversized load, on public highways. Most of the places I can think of that I could get local government permission, and buy cheap land, to put a 747 house in place... Have a near 1:1 venn diagram overlap with places that might have a half mile dirt driveway with trees on both sides, where it would be difficult to get a truck and traditional dimension single-wide mobile home into, nevermind a 747.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    Yes. I imagine just getting someone to cut off the fuel-tanks-througout wings is a challenge. Moving it afterwards is likely very hard.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      It's just a kerosene/diesel tank (jet fuel is basically kerosene or diesel depending on grade) an aluminum one at that. As far as cutting up fuel tanks goes it doesn't get any easier. Though that won't anyone you hire from trying to screw you on price "because fuel".

ineedasername 6y ago

Well, you know what they say: The two happiest days of your life are the day you buy a broken down widebody 747, and the day you blow it up.

throwawaysea 6y ago
This made me laugh. Thank you.

nathan_f77 6y ago

Wow, I would have never guessed that! That makes me think that it might be fun to buy a piece of land and live inside an old 747. I found this video where someone is living inside a Boeing 727: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iat-WgSvGME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iat-WgSvGME Here's another person living in a 727: https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=rKm5oF2p-II https://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=rKm5oF2p-II This one has a much nicer interior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwLlI9abgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwLlI9abgU According to one of the comments on the first video, they spent 120k on the plane, and another 100k to move it to the forest. I would probably want to spend another ~300k for renovations and everything else (proper foundation, shower, kitchen, water and sewer lines, etc. etc.) It's not cheap, but that's a lot cheaper than I was expecting. Especially compared to the average house in an expensive city. I think it might also be a lot more fun than living in a "tiny house". I recently read this "Why We Don't Like Our Underground House" article that was posted on HN: https://dengarden.com/misc/The-Pitfalls-of-an-Underground-House https://dengarden.com/misc/The-Pitfalls-of-an-Underground-Ho... That was a reminder that doing something unconventional can be risky and cause lots of unexpected problems. So it would probably be a good idea to also spend a lot of money on architects and engineers to make sure that everything is done properly and there's no surprises.

redis_mlc 6y ago
> Wow, I would have never guessed that! Airliners are merely business tools - operators have no romance for any plane. If a 777 is even 2% more efficient than a 747, the 747 is grounded and chopped up. The related factors are that 4 engines is more maintenance than 2 engines, the classic 747 is no longer certified for passenger use in the USA (wiring and fuel-tank inerting ADs), and ETOPS allows twin-engine flight on almost all commercially-viable oceanic routes. (ETOPS makes me nervous af.) Source: commercially-rated airplane pilot.
- mjg59 6y ago
  > ETOPS makes me nervous af The only case I can think of where an ETOPS flight had both engines fail due to something other than fuel exhaustion was BA38, and it's hard to say a quad jet would have managed better there. I can understand the gut feeling that the safety factor has been reduced, but given several decades without horror stories is it really still something to be nervous about?

tus88 6y ago

Yeah but what's the insurance bill...

stanfordkid 6y ago

Steven Spielberg used an old 747 for War of the worlds and the set is still on the tram tour at Universal Studios. Apparently the airplane itself was free, but it cost $250k to transport it to the location of filming!

lostlogin 6y ago

Are you able to explain what your line of work is?