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You explicitly claimed it wouldn't be worse. Consider applying your own standards to that claim. Consider also that it's possible to assert something without p

You explicitly claimed it wouldn't be worse. Consider applying your own standards to that claim. Consider also that it's possible to assert something without perfect knowledge of its truth. Usually context is sufficient to gather the level of certainty being expressed, or the implicit perspective from which it holds true, without hedging and defensively weakening every little statement. > > Perhaps that's because you want the wrong thing for some reason. > Allow me to make it very simple: You didn't give any reasons for your opinion. You just gave your opinion. I'm glad you translated it because I'd never have gotten the second claim from the first. Phew. > What about that speaks to "theory of the mind and epistemology" in your opinion? Your entire objection, which seems to carry some unusual assumptions about the power and utility of thought experiments and the extent of the value of comparing similar, but not identical, things. Notably, it appears to reject them as being to any useful degree, even for evaluating a user-facing OS feature valid or enlightening. > Gee, I wonder if your whole problem couldn't just be solved by letting you opt into the whole idea of PWA notifications? Making them opt-in and off by default, ideally with no way for the app to tell whether they're enabled, would be an improvement, but allow me to repeat my reason from my post which, you claim, contained no reasons: I do not want features that make webapps more viable on iOS, because I do not like webapps and prefer an environment that makes me less likely to encounter them for any reason. So simply not having the feature would be even better. [EDIT] nb. I entirely get disagreement with my position on a variety of grounds, but I find such apparent failure to even engage with it, and rejection that it is a position, harder to understand.

wayneftw 6y ago
> You explicitly claimed it wouldn't be worse. Consider applying your own standards to that claim. Having a choice is always better than not having one with regards personal preferences. That's my standard. What's yours aside from "I don't like web apps"? > Your entire objection, which seems to carry some unusual assumptions about the power and utility of thought experiments and the extent of the value of comparing similar, but not identical, things. Notably, it appears to reject them as being to any useful degree, even for evaluating a user-facing OS feature valid or enlightening. For example? You are needlessly complicating the conversation with all this meta-drivel. It's pretty simple really: You want everybody to have no choice. I want people to have a choice. I stated my position pretty clearly. You're just giving opinions and philosophizing. > Making them opt-in and off by default, ideally with no way for the app to tell whether they're enabled, would be an improvement... Good - we've moved from zero choice, to some choice. We're making progress! > because I do not like webapps and prefer an environment that makes me less likely to encounter them for any reason. That's not a reason. That's an opinion and a personal preference. You didn't state the reason for your opinion that nobody should be able to get PWA notifications. > I entirely get disagreement with my position on a variety of grounds, but I find such apparent failure to even engage with it, and rejection that it is a position, harder to understand. You still haven't stated anything other than your opinion.
- Zippogriff 6y ago
  > You still haven't stated anything other than your opinion. That's all either of us have been doing. [EDIT] and an opinion can be a reason! They're not mutually exclusive. Do you need an itemized list of problems I have with webapps, with figures backing them all up (else they'd be opinions again, I guess)? I figured that'd been discussed to death, especially on HN. > Having a choice is always better than not having one with regards personal preferences. That's my standard. What's yours aside from "I don't like web apps"? I like being able to choose a platform that makes it hard for developers to get by with a webapp, pushing them toward native apps. See? I like choice too.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    > That's all either of us have been doing...and an opinion can be a reason! An opinion is pretty worthless without some reasoning. You still haven't stated any of yours. > Do you need an itemized list of problems I have with webapps, with figures backing them all up (else they'd be opinions again, I guess)? I figured that'd been discussed to death, especially on HN. Oh, I think I'm beginning to see what your problem is. There's no middle ground in your mind. It probably affects every facet of your life. It's either "I hate web apps and everybody has to immediately accept that this is a good reason for nobody to have any choice." or it's "You are asking me for an itemized list with figures backing them all up even though I feel like everybody should have read everything that was ever printed on HN at any time". Instead of simply stating a bit of your reasoning, you're attacking the whole idea of having reasons. It's a bad strategy and you're not going to convince anyone with that. > I like being able to choose a platform that makes it hard for developers to get by with a webapp, pushing them toward native apps. See? I like choice too. That's not a choice. That's an ultimatum based on a poorly reasoned opinion. I'm guessing you'll need to have the last word or you're going to have a really bad day. Enjoy that!
    - Zippogriff 6y ago
      Sigh. I make an HN account yet again because I see a topic I actually, for real, know about and have something useful to contribute. Then keep commenting with it, pile up karma without really trying. Then end up in an argument with a certifiable troll and/or moron (one can never tell), while not even attempting to argue, even a little, mostly just trying to figure out why they're so angry and (every single time) bad at reading. Then get frustrated at how spectacularly shitposting-tolerant HN is despite its self-image and set my password to something I don't know, with no reset email. Rinse, repeat. Swear to god this is the last time you trick me, HN. I leave you to what you want to be.

wayneftw 6y ago

> You explicitly claimed it wouldn't be worse. Consider applying your own standards to that claim. Having a choice is always better than not having one with regards personal preferences. That's my standard. What's yours aside from "I don't like web apps"? > Your entire objection, which seems to carry some unusual assumptions about the power and utility of thought experiments and the extent of the value of comparing similar, but not identical, things. Notably, it appears to reject them as being to any useful degree, even for evaluating a user-facing OS feature valid or enlightening. For example? You are needlessly complicating the conversation with all this meta-drivel. It's pretty simple really: You want everybody to have no choice. I want people to have a choice. I stated my position pretty clearly. You're just giving opinions and philosophizing. > Making them opt-in and off by default, ideally with no way for the app to tell whether they're enabled, would be an improvement... Good - we've moved from zero choice, to some choice. We're making progress! > because I do not like webapps and prefer an environment that makes me less likely to encounter them for any reason. That's not a reason. That's an opinion and a personal preference. You didn't state the reason for your opinion that nobody should be able to get PWA notifications. > I entirely get disagreement with my position on a variety of grounds, but I find such apparent failure to even engage with it, and rejection that it is a position, harder to understand. You still haven't stated anything other than your opinion.

Zippogriff 6y ago
> You still haven't stated anything other than your opinion. That's all either of us have been doing. [EDIT] and an opinion can be a reason! They're not mutually exclusive. Do you need an itemized list of problems I have with webapps, with figures backing them all up (else they'd be opinions again, I guess)? I figured that'd been discussed to death, especially on HN. > Having a choice is always better than not having one with regards personal preferences. That's my standard. What's yours aside from "I don't like web apps"? I like being able to choose a platform that makes it hard for developers to get by with a webapp, pushing them toward native apps. See? I like choice too.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  > That's all either of us have been doing...and an opinion can be a reason! An opinion is pretty worthless without some reasoning. You still haven't stated any of yours. > Do you need an itemized list of problems I have with webapps, with figures backing them all up (else they'd be opinions again, I guess)? I figured that'd been discussed to death, especially on HN. Oh, I think I'm beginning to see what your problem is. There's no middle ground in your mind. It probably affects every facet of your life. It's either "I hate web apps and everybody has to immediately accept that this is a good reason for nobody to have any choice." or it's "You are asking me for an itemized list with figures backing them all up even though I feel like everybody should have read everything that was ever printed on HN at any time". Instead of simply stating a bit of your reasoning, you're attacking the whole idea of having reasons. It's a bad strategy and you're not going to convince anyone with that. > I like being able to choose a platform that makes it hard for developers to get by with a webapp, pushing them toward native apps. See? I like choice too. That's not a choice. That's an ultimatum based on a poorly reasoned opinion. I'm guessing you'll need to have the last word or you're going to have a really bad day. Enjoy that!
  - Zippogriff 6y ago
    Sigh. I make an HN account yet again because I see a topic I actually, for real, know about and have something useful to contribute. Then keep commenting with it, pile up karma without really trying. Then end up in an argument with a certifiable troll and/or moron (one can never tell), while not even attempting to argue, even a little, mostly just trying to figure out why they're so angry and (every single time) bad at reading. Then get frustrated at how spectacularly shitposting-tolerant HN is despite its self-image and set my password to something I don't know, with no reset email. Rinse, repeat. Swear to god this is the last time you trick me, HN. I leave you to what you want to be.