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Noticed that Paul Atreides says 'There's a crusade coming' in the trailer. In the book they specifically use the word 'jihad' repeatedly and the book draws from

Noticed that Paul Atreides says 'There's a crusade coming' in the trailer. In the book they specifically use the word 'jihad' repeatedly and the book draws from a variety of influences in the Middle East. I hope they haven't toned things down too much for a modern audience. Part of what made the book so special was its vocabulary.

jhallenworld 6y ago
Perhaps saying that the Missionaria Protectiva is behind Christian instead of Islamic beliefs is more provocative.. But I agree with you about the vocabulary. I recommend George Alec Effinger's Marîd Audran series for more of this.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Gravity_Fails https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Gravity_Fails
- tstrimple 6y ago
  > Effinger started work on a fourth Audran novel, Word of Night, but died before that work was completed. I've had enough unfinished sci-fi epics for the year thank you.
xiaolingxiao 6y ago
Yeah I caught that too. The whole book was a critique of colonialism, unsustainable capitalism, and deconstruction of the white savior complex. I hope he doesn’t shy away from these subjects.
rchase 6y ago
Nice catch. No judgment yet, but feels like bowdlerization to me. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bowdlerize https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bowdlerize
everdumb 6y ago
I imagine they will have to do so. I cannot see how having a major antagonist group that uses women as breeding equipment and plot to undermine and take over the entire galaxy that traces its origins to Islam will be palpable for a modern commercial enterprise.
jariel 6y ago
My very first thought when they were doing this remake was literally that word. There are times when words change for PC reasons, but this isn't one of them. 'Jihad' is a very potent word in the modern lexicon and it would just be unnecessarily out of bounds to use it. It would have the wrong context and be a huge distraction. 'Crusade' is fine, and not 'unPC' because it has Christian connotations, so few care, and creatively perfectly fine ... but I feel is actually a little hypocritical in a sense to use it, in lieu of 'Jihad'. But it's a hard word to replace. Already, the culture wars are starting, with industry people on Twitter indicating this is a 'move about Middle Eastern culture with no Middle Eastern Actors' type thing, comparisons to 'God's of Egypt' - when of course, this is definitely not a movie about 'the Middle East' rather, that's only one of many cultural artifacts borrowed for the setting. As for the trailer: The music is absolutely terrible, it's going to ruin the film for me. Otherwise, it looks 'contemporary' i.e. it will be 'good' but not 'timeless'. David Lynch's version was a 'flawed masterpiece' - the characters really embodied the 'realpolitik baroque noir' of the book. David Lynch used a lot of serious actors with stage backgrounds, who could also evoke and embody the very cold 'old world' callousness of the nobility. Jason Momoa does not. In the trailer there are just too many standard Hollywood, familiar faces, Timothy Chatalet feels like a 'regular gen Z kid', relatable, but doesn't have the 'weight of the soul' on his mind. The aesthetic is 'of the Villeneuve style' but it's definitely not exciting or novel, I feel Villeneuve & Co. have 'operationalized' their schtick and it lacks enthusiasm. If we can judge from the trailer it will be 'passable' for most fans and regular people, but it won't be great at all. I predict this will be about as good as his Blade Runner remake. I am disappointed because there is huge opportunity for creative expansion - instead of 'standard remake for 2020' they could have actually tried some art.
- solipsism 6y ago
  "flawed masterpiece"? Even David Lynch himself hates his Dune. This (God) emperor has no clothes.
  - jariel 6y ago
    The fact that people are still watching this movie 35 years later implies there is something very good about it. Lynch distanced himself publicly from it, because it was an economic disaster bad on many levels, but I'll bet $100 that with some afterthought, people can recognize what is 'good' about it. It's a genre defining feature, almost entirely unto it's own, the creative design was 'otherworldly' to the point it probably has not been matched in SciFi ever. Baron Harkonen's scene where he murders of his aid ... the scene where Paul sends his ultra-creepy sister Alia in, alone to 'face the emperor' and she murders Baron ... the representation of the Gild Navigators - just so well done. Almost everyone but possibly Feyd (ie Sting) and maybe Duncan Idaho, maybe the Padishah Emperor was perfectly cast. Lynch bit off more than he could chew, and there were too many characters in too little time. You know when a creative representation just 'feels so right it's right'? For example with the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy? Frodo, Gandalf, the Elves - it was 'perfect' - it seemed to 'everyone' that 'this is right'. I feel the creative direction with Lynch's Dune was that. Reverend Mother Gaius Mohiam from Lynch? I think this image is etched into our minds as 'exactly what she is like'. Our comparisons in the future will be in reference to her. There was a very interesting version by Jorodowsky that looked really fun, however, I feel it was way too corny, and would have ended up more like Barbarella [1]. For those interested: Jurodovsky's Dune [2]. The missing ingredient in everyone else's Dune is the acid! I would say to Villeneuve "Ok, now take what you have done, and remake it while you are on an acid trip". It's a psychedelic movie about transcendence, God, realpolitik etc.. Hardcore stuff. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarella_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarella_(film) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune
pauladunesauce 6y ago
I can’t completely blame the writers. Since Dune was written, a few things such as 9/11 have happened. Radical Islamic terrorism was nowhere near what it ultimately became after the book for dune was released in 1965. Prior to 9/11, I think the majority of the public probably had a very different association with the word “jihad.” It pretty much conjures the image of crazy bearded Muslims in Afghanistan strapping bombs to themselves and blowing things up. That image simply does not describe precisely what happens in the book. I think the word “jihad” also creates a jarring interruption and a distraction also. “What the hell, why is this white guy talking about jihad?” It feels like a non sequiter and a distraction. Do white people jihad things? What??? The media will jump on it and start calling this a racist tv show which perpetuates stereotypes. It’s also cultural appropriation by modern standards, which are crazy. HBO has had a HUGE blowback to Game Of Thrones on this topic in a dozen ways. I think the blowback was so bad they changed their entire programming to be more diverse and inclusive (Watchmen, Lovecraft Etc). George Martin has been constantly pestered with questions from concerned audiences about white saviors and other such things. Long story short, the term jihad is an unwelcome distraction, too loaded, opens HBO to criticism they don’t want and it doesn’t accurately describe precisely what happens in the book. I think crusade is correct and doesn’t create this interruption.
- valuearb 6y ago
  That huge blowback helped make GOT the most popular cable show of all time. I’ll bet they’d love similar blowback over Dune.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  Try mentioning "crusade" in an online game when playing with Turks.
  - spery 6y ago
    Why would they get offended by it?
    - tilt_error 6y ago
wojciii 6y ago
I had the impression that the Fremen were based on the middle Eastern stereotype male. This was a great use of the word Jihad to describe. The culture needed a focus point and the Atreides family provided one by manipulating their beliefs. Jihad was also used to describe the past where thinking machines (AI) was destroyed in a tech smashing jihad which lead to the world of the books without AI. While I liked the books 20 years ago .. I think that the previous Dune movies were really bad and I'm going to give the new movie a chance. Even without being true to the books and somewhat politically correct.
SigmundA 6y ago
I mean I get the debate going around about using "crusade" instead of "jihad" but straight from the books appendices: >JIHAD: a religious crusade; fanatical crusade. >JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt)—the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.
craftinator 6y ago
It might be a fun project to go through the movie after its release and bleep out every politically charged word or phrase. I really do hate this reductionism.
- vb6sp6 6y ago
  it might also be fun project to see the film first before getting "offended"
Balgair 6y ago
I thought the jihad that Paul fears is part of the 'great enemy' to humanity, not the fremen. The fear of that jihad/crusade/great-enemy is what gets Leto going on the Golden Path and the eventual scattering of mankind. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/The_Golden_Path https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/The_Golden_Path
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  Muad'Dib fears the jihad he himself would unleash on the universe, and can't find a way to stop without ceasing his own quest for power. The 'great enemy' that Leto tries to forestall is sometimes called Kralizec and isn't necessarily explained in detail, although there are hints it would be some kind of Ixian hunter-killer assassination machines which run out of control, and hunt down all of humanity which is within view of prescient sight. Hence, the Scattering and Leto's breeding program to create humans invisible to prescience so that humanity could never again be vulnerable to extinction from any such threat.
  - Balgair 6y ago
    Oh, got it! There are multiple fears then.

jhallenworld 6y ago

Perhaps saying that the Missionaria Protectiva is behind Christian instead of Islamic beliefs is more provocative.. But I agree with you about the vocabulary. I recommend George Alec Effinger's Marîd Audran series for more of this.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Gravity_Fails https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Gravity_Fails

tstrimple 6y ago
> Effinger started work on a fourth Audran novel, Word of Night, but died before that work was completed. I've had enough unfinished sci-fi epics for the year thank you.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago

Yeah I caught that too. The whole book was a critique of colonialism, unsustainable capitalism, and deconstruction of the white savior complex. I hope he doesn’t shy away from these subjects.

rchase 6y ago

Nice catch. No judgment yet, but feels like bowdlerization to me. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bowdlerize https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bowdlerize

everdumb 6y ago

I imagine they will have to do so. I cannot see how having a major antagonist group that uses women as breeding equipment and plot to undermine and take over the entire galaxy that traces its origins to Islam will be palpable for a modern commercial enterprise.

jariel 6y ago

My very first thought when they were doing this remake was literally that word. There are times when words change for PC reasons, but this isn't one of them. 'Jihad' is a very potent word in the modern lexicon and it would just be unnecessarily out of bounds to use it. It would have the wrong context and be a huge distraction. 'Crusade' is fine, and not 'unPC' because it has Christian connotations, so few care, and creatively perfectly fine ... but I feel is actually a little hypocritical in a sense to use it, in lieu of 'Jihad'. But it's a hard word to replace. Already, the culture wars are starting, with industry people on Twitter indicating this is a 'move about Middle Eastern culture with no Middle Eastern Actors' type thing, comparisons to 'God's of Egypt' - when of course, this is definitely not a movie about 'the Middle East' rather, that's only one of many cultural artifacts borrowed for the setting. As for the trailer: The music is absolutely terrible, it's going to ruin the film for me. Otherwise, it looks 'contemporary' i.e. it will be 'good' but not 'timeless'. David Lynch's version was a 'flawed masterpiece' - the characters really embodied the 'realpolitik baroque noir' of the book. David Lynch used a lot of serious actors with stage backgrounds, who could also evoke and embody the very cold 'old world' callousness of the nobility. Jason Momoa does not. In the trailer there are just too many standard Hollywood, familiar faces, Timothy Chatalet feels like a 'regular gen Z kid', relatable, but doesn't have the 'weight of the soul' on his mind. The aesthetic is 'of the Villeneuve style' but it's definitely not exciting or novel, I feel Villeneuve & Co. have 'operationalized' their schtick and it lacks enthusiasm. If we can judge from the trailer it will be 'passable' for most fans and regular people, but it won't be great at all. I predict this will be about as good as his Blade Runner remake. I am disappointed because there is huge opportunity for creative expansion - instead of 'standard remake for 2020' they could have actually tried some art.

solipsism 6y ago
"flawed masterpiece"? Even David Lynch himself hates his Dune. This (God) emperor has no clothes.
- jariel 6y ago
  The fact that people are still watching this movie 35 years later implies there is something very good about it. Lynch distanced himself publicly from it, because it was an economic disaster bad on many levels, but I'll bet $100 that with some afterthought, people can recognize what is 'good' about it. It's a genre defining feature, almost entirely unto it's own, the creative design was 'otherworldly' to the point it probably has not been matched in SciFi ever. Baron Harkonen's scene where he murders of his aid ... the scene where Paul sends his ultra-creepy sister Alia in, alone to 'face the emperor' and she murders Baron ... the representation of the Gild Navigators - just so well done. Almost everyone but possibly Feyd (ie Sting) and maybe Duncan Idaho, maybe the Padishah Emperor was perfectly cast. Lynch bit off more than he could chew, and there were too many characters in too little time. You know when a creative representation just 'feels so right it's right'? For example with the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy? Frodo, Gandalf, the Elves - it was 'perfect' - it seemed to 'everyone' that 'this is right'. I feel the creative direction with Lynch's Dune was that. Reverend Mother Gaius Mohiam from Lynch? I think this image is etched into our minds as 'exactly what she is like'. Our comparisons in the future will be in reference to her. There was a very interesting version by Jorodowsky that looked really fun, however, I feel it was way too corny, and would have ended up more like Barbarella [1]. For those interested: Jurodovsky's Dune [2]. The missing ingredient in everyone else's Dune is the acid! I would say to Villeneuve "Ok, now take what you have done, and remake it while you are on an acid trip". It's a psychedelic movie about transcendence, God, realpolitik etc.. Hardcore stuff. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarella_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarella_(film) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune

pauladunesauce 6y ago

I can’t completely blame the writers. Since Dune was written, a few things such as 9/11 have happened. Radical Islamic terrorism was nowhere near what it ultimately became after the book for dune was released in 1965. Prior to 9/11, I think the majority of the public probably had a very different association with the word “jihad.” It pretty much conjures the image of crazy bearded Muslims in Afghanistan strapping bombs to themselves and blowing things up. That image simply does not describe precisely what happens in the book. I think the word “jihad” also creates a jarring interruption and a distraction also. “What the hell, why is this white guy talking about jihad?” It feels like a non sequiter and a distraction. Do white people jihad things? What??? The media will jump on it and start calling this a racist tv show which perpetuates stereotypes. It’s also cultural appropriation by modern standards, which are crazy. HBO has had a HUGE blowback to Game Of Thrones on this topic in a dozen ways. I think the blowback was so bad they changed their entire programming to be more diverse and inclusive (Watchmen, Lovecraft Etc). George Martin has been constantly pestered with questions from concerned audiences about white saviors and other such things. Long story short, the term jihad is an unwelcome distraction, too loaded, opens HBO to criticism they don’t want and it doesn’t accurately describe precisely what happens in the book. I think crusade is correct and doesn’t create this interruption.

valuearb 6y ago
That huge blowback helped make GOT the most popular cable show of all time. I’ll bet they’d love similar blowback over Dune.
PeterStuer 6y ago
Try mentioning "crusade" in an online game when playing with Turks.
- spery 6y ago
  Why would they get offended by it?
  - tilt_error 6y ago

wojciii 6y ago

I had the impression that the Fremen were based on the middle Eastern stereotype male. This was a great use of the word Jihad to describe. The culture needed a focus point and the Atreides family provided one by manipulating their beliefs. Jihad was also used to describe the past where thinking machines (AI) was destroyed in a tech smashing jihad which lead to the world of the books without AI. While I liked the books 20 years ago .. I think that the previous Dune movies were really bad and I'm going to give the new movie a chance. Even without being true to the books and somewhat politically correct.

SigmundA 6y ago

I mean I get the debate going around about using "crusade" instead of "jihad" but straight from the books appendices: >JIHAD: a religious crusade; fanatical crusade. >JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt)—the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.

craftinator 6y ago

It might be a fun project to go through the movie after its release and bleep out every politically charged word or phrase. I really do hate this reductionism.

vb6sp6 6y ago
it might also be fun project to see the film first before getting "offended"

Balgair 6y ago

I thought the jihad that Paul fears is part of the 'great enemy' to humanity, not the fremen. The fear of that jihad/crusade/great-enemy is what gets Leto going on the Golden Path and the eventual scattering of mankind. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/The_Golden_Path https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/The_Golden_Path

AndrewBissell 6y ago
Muad'Dib fears the jihad he himself would unleash on the universe, and can't find a way to stop without ceasing his own quest for power. The 'great enemy' that Leto tries to forestall is sometimes called Kralizec and isn't necessarily explained in detail, although there are hints it would be some kind of Ixian hunter-killer assassination machines which run out of control, and hunt down all of humanity which is within view of prescient sight. Hence, the Scattering and Leto's breeding program to create humans invisible to prescience so that humanity could never again be vulnerable to extinction from any such threat.
- Balgair 6y ago
  Oh, got it! There are multiple fears then.