6 ms·

I get that often from a whole slew of people I wouldn't expect to be cowardly. It's really awkward to date when the n-th date involves a discussion of possible

by ioerror 15y ago

I get that often from a whole slew of people I wouldn't expect to be cowardly. It's really awkward to date when the n-th date involves a discussion of possible harassing police raids in the middle of the night.

andrewcooke 15y ago
is there any way to help? apart from being generally sympathetic to the appropriate causes, donating to Tor, EFF, etc, is there anything that a bit more specific that people with the kind of skills that read HN can do?
- mtex 15y ago
  "apart from being generally sympathetic to the appropriate causes, donating to Tor", there you go, that's what this whole threatre performance is about. Donating to Tor is not going to stop the DHS in any way, but you know, it certainly doesn't hurt Appelbaum's employer when you donate! As an aside, but nevertheless siginificant to point out, these trips of Appelbaum's are AFAIK business trips, not recreational trips. Appelbaum is traveling because his employer asked him to. So why isn't Appelbaum's employer Tor, or the University of Washington for that matter, taking the necessary steps to assist a traveling researcher/proselytizer? If Appelbaum's employer demands that he travel, isn't it Appelbaum's employer own responsibility to make sure an employee can travel, assisting him with a lawyer or a co-traveling escort? And why would an employer put up with all this, when the employer can just as well hire another proselytizer, one who is not associated with Wikileaks and who can cross borders with a lot less hassle? Sorry folks, it's just not adding up for me. (But your donations are certainly adding up for Tor!)
  - ioerror 15y ago
    Actually, this happens whenever I travel across a border - for personal or business trips. In any case, it doesn't cost anyone but me (in time, stress, etc) anything extra.
redthrowaway 15y ago
I don't think "cowardly" is the right way to put it. The level of harassment you put up with is obscene, and that you continue to stick to your guns in the face of it is admirable. That said, it's not something that most people want in their lives. Many people just want to pursue their interests, develop their career, and raise a family. Dealing with the level of harassment you face imperils all of those goals. Unless someone is dedicated to a cause and willing to sacrifice a lot to serve it, it's unreasonable to ask them to invite that kind of drama into their lives. I respect what you do, but I think it's unfair and myopic to label as "cowards" anyone who doesn't share your commitment. On an unrelated note, does this mean the FBI will be serving pg with a warrant for our info?
- ioerror 15y ago
  I partially agree with you. The level of harassment I deal with is obscene and the never ending nature is very stressful. However, I use the word cowardly because the results you outlined are not certain. It's not even likely. When fear rules you and limits otherwise desirable actions, you're acting as a coward without a doubt.
  - redthrowaway 15y ago
    I'm not convinced. It may not be a popular sentiment, but I don't think that there is a moral imperative to risk life and liberty to extinguish injustice. We can certainly applaud those who do, without condemning those who don't. Not everyone has the moral fortitude and strength of character to be an Oskar Schindler. We could wish the world were otherwise, but I don't think recognizing the virtue of those such as Schindler necessitates condemning his neighbour who only wanted to protect and provide for his family.
    - ioerror 15y ago
      I think sage_jock said it best here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2430567 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2430567
erikpukinskis 15y ago
I'm sorry you have to go through that bullshit, and I support your work making sure that people have the tech infrastructure they need to communicate privately and publish anonymously. So thank you. I just wanted to throw in there... I feel for you with the issues dating.. but in my experience it's not worth dating someone long-term who doesn't have the highest degree of respect for who you are. And for someone who really respects you, that conversation would only deepen their connection to you. They may be few and far between, but anyone else isn't worth your time.
samfoo 15y ago
I'm assuming you're Jacob? I'm curious how accurately you believe the article portrays the harassment. It's hard to read between the lines, and the Stranger is biased to the left (not that this invalidates it). Have you consulted a lawyer about legal recourse? Is UW supporting you? It says that (presumably in Newark?) you were handed over to a US Army official. Are you certain the individual worked for the Army? Wikileaks and the Federal Government's response to it is fascinating to me. I'd love to hear more details than what little teaser of an article offers.
- marshray 15y ago
  ioerror is Jacob Appelbaum's handle on twitter too. I don't know anything about the site that the article is on, but it corresponds pretty closely to what I've read elsewhere. I suppose a lot of folks probably do consider this type of extralegal harassment to be a political left/right issue. Personally I don't understand that type of thinking and suspect it's probably not useful to attempt to reason about that degree of madness. I do believe that a lot of politicians and prominent officials are earning their place in the history books...right next to Sen Joe McCarthy in the article on 'Un-American Douchebags'.
  - jbooth 15y ago
    It wasn't pre-ordained that Joe McCarthy would go down in history as an un-american douchebag. He had a great ride at the top with lots of good americans saying good things about him for a while. If noone called him out, he'd have just been another politician making hay out of fear and "the other".
    - marshray 15y ago
      It's true that McCarthy had a solid basis of support for his program, especially at the beginning before people saw where it was going. There were, in fact, a wide variety of leftist groups operating in America and no doubt some had a long-term vision of imposing a communist system here with the assistance of foreign powers. This was not pure fantasy - it was actually happening at a surprising rate in the late 40's and 50's. But McCarthy & co. did more than simple fear-mongering and "making political hay". They were using the considerable power of the US Federal Govt against individuals for their politics and for not-justifiably-illegal actions. They were destroying livelihoods and putting people in jail. It's easy to see in retrospect that the US was not at risk of the Red Tide because the economic fundamentals were absurdly better than what was needed for the leftist revolution. McCarthy & co. degraded America and damaged our principles out of stupid hysteria and demagoguery. This only went on as long as it did because there weren't enough level-headed people who were willing to pay the price of questioning it openly. Wikileaks/Manning/ioerror are not an existential threat to America, but this path of systematically abandoning principles of protecting individuals from the abuses of government power absolutely is.
kragen 15y ago
> I get that often from a whole slew of people I wouldn't expect to be cowardly. You know you can stay at my house any time. It's far too late for me to be cowardly. I'm not aware of any repercussions Beatrice or I have suffered so far for our association with you. > It's really awkward to date when the n-th date involves a discussion of possible harassing police raids in the middle of the night. Seems like that's something to discuss before the 0th date. You well know there are zillions of girls and guys who find outlaws sexy, especially outlaws for a real cause (as opposed to just crooks.)
aantix 15y ago
While I'm sure it's not feasible in every travel instance, is it possible to travel with a lawyer so that you have counsel by your side when the harassment occurs again?
- mtex 15y ago
  It is feasible and is well within his means. Jacob Appelbaum is not poor. With his work for Tor Appelbaum earns 96 000 dollars a year, almost triple the American average of 33 000 dollars. He's got enough money to get himself a lawyer. Even if he didn't have the money, Appelbaum has over 10 000 followers on Twitter, if everyone chipped in with $10 he'd have the money to sue the DHS. Wikileaks with Assange's 1,7 million bookdeal could also chip in with a bit of money. The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is: why is none of this happening? Why is Appelbaum openly wallowing in his victimization and defeatism, when he could be doing so many other things to pursue his 4th amendment rights? I can no longer escape the impression that I am watching a drama-queen theatre performance.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    It's always very easy to spend other people's money, isn't it. I make more than the amount you quote, but I don't have enough money to go around suing the government. Is it because I'm a drama queen? Nope, it's because I have other things to do that require money. I am sure Appelbaum does too.
    - mtex 15y ago
      "It's always very easy to spend other people's money, isn't it." It's nowhere near as easy as pointing the finger at people with less means than yourself and calling them "cowards" for not having the financial means to pursue their rights. Using the law is expesive, but this particular person is not poor. He deliberately chooses to not use the law. "I make more than the amount you quote, but I don't have enough money to go around suing the government." Well, I'd have to ask, why don't you? Maybe that's the problem: all you people who really do have the means to sue the government aren't doing so. Instead, you're just pointing the finger at the "sheeple" who make a lot less than you do, saying: "Look at those cowards over there, they're doing anything to resist,the country is going down the drain because of them, bla bla bla". Listen, we are all on leash, and those of you with the longer leash should be doing more to resist than those of us with the shorter leash. Instead, you point the finger and call those with the shorter leash "cowards" and "collaborators". That's "lifestyle activism" for ya.

by ioerror 15y ago

andrewcooke 15y ago

is there any way to help? apart from being generally sympathetic to the appropriate causes, donating to Tor, EFF, etc, is there anything that a bit more specific that people with the kind of skills that read HN can do?

mtex 15y ago
"apart from being generally sympathetic to the appropriate causes, donating to Tor", there you go, that's what this whole threatre performance is about. Donating to Tor is not going to stop the DHS in any way, but you know, it certainly doesn't hurt Appelbaum's employer when you donate! As an aside, but nevertheless siginificant to point out, these trips of Appelbaum's are AFAIK business trips, not recreational trips. Appelbaum is traveling because his employer asked him to. So why isn't Appelbaum's employer Tor, or the University of Washington for that matter, taking the necessary steps to assist a traveling researcher/proselytizer? If Appelbaum's employer demands that he travel, isn't it Appelbaum's employer own responsibility to make sure an employee can travel, assisting him with a lawyer or a co-traveling escort? And why would an employer put up with all this, when the employer can just as well hire another proselytizer, one who is not associated with Wikileaks and who can cross borders with a lot less hassle? Sorry folks, it's just not adding up for me. (But your donations are certainly adding up for Tor!)
- ioerror 15y ago
  Actually, this happens whenever I travel across a border - for personal or business trips. In any case, it doesn't cost anyone but me (in time, stress, etc) anything extra.

redthrowaway 15y ago

I don't think "cowardly" is the right way to put it. The level of harassment you put up with is obscene, and that you continue to stick to your guns in the face of it is admirable. That said, it's not something that most people want in their lives. Many people just want to pursue their interests, develop their career, and raise a family. Dealing with the level of harassment you face imperils all of those goals. Unless someone is dedicated to a cause and willing to sacrifice a lot to serve it, it's unreasonable to ask them to invite that kind of drama into their lives. I respect what you do, but I think it's unfair and myopic to label as "cowards" anyone who doesn't share your commitment. On an unrelated note, does this mean the FBI will be serving pg with a warrant for our info?

ioerror 15y ago
I partially agree with you. The level of harassment I deal with is obscene and the never ending nature is very stressful. However, I use the word cowardly because the results you outlined are not certain. It's not even likely. When fear rules you and limits otherwise desirable actions, you're acting as a coward without a doubt.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  I'm not convinced. It may not be a popular sentiment, but I don't think that there is a moral imperative to risk life and liberty to extinguish injustice. We can certainly applaud those who do, without condemning those who don't. Not everyone has the moral fortitude and strength of character to be an Oskar Schindler. We could wish the world were otherwise, but I don't think recognizing the virtue of those such as Schindler necessitates condemning his neighbour who only wanted to protect and provide for his family.
  - ioerror 15y ago
    I think sage_jock said it best here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2430567 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2430567

erikpukinskis 15y ago

I'm sorry you have to go through that bullshit, and I support your work making sure that people have the tech infrastructure they need to communicate privately and publish anonymously. So thank you. I just wanted to throw in there... I feel for you with the issues dating.. but in my experience it's not worth dating someone long-term who doesn't have the highest degree of respect for who you are. And for someone who really respects you, that conversation would only deepen their connection to you. They may be few and far between, but anyone else isn't worth your time.

samfoo 15y ago

I'm assuming you're Jacob? I'm curious how accurately you believe the article portrays the harassment. It's hard to read between the lines, and the Stranger is biased to the left (not that this invalidates it). Have you consulted a lawyer about legal recourse? Is UW supporting you? It says that (presumably in Newark?) you were handed over to a US Army official. Are you certain the individual worked for the Army? Wikileaks and the Federal Government's response to it is fascinating to me. I'd love to hear more details than what little teaser of an article offers.

marshray 15y ago
ioerror is Jacob Appelbaum's handle on twitter too. I don't know anything about the site that the article is on, but it corresponds pretty closely to what I've read elsewhere. I suppose a lot of folks probably do consider this type of extralegal harassment to be a political left/right issue. Personally I don't understand that type of thinking and suspect it's probably not useful to attempt to reason about that degree of madness. I do believe that a lot of politicians and prominent officials are earning their place in the history books...right next to Sen Joe McCarthy in the article on 'Un-American Douchebags'.
- jbooth 15y ago
  It wasn't pre-ordained that Joe McCarthy would go down in history as an un-american douchebag. He had a great ride at the top with lots of good americans saying good things about him for a while. If noone called him out, he'd have just been another politician making hay out of fear and "the other".
  - marshray 15y ago
    It's true that McCarthy had a solid basis of support for his program, especially at the beginning before people saw where it was going. There were, in fact, a wide variety of leftist groups operating in America and no doubt some had a long-term vision of imposing a communist system here with the assistance of foreign powers. This was not pure fantasy - it was actually happening at a surprising rate in the late 40's and 50's. But McCarthy & co. did more than simple fear-mongering and "making political hay". They were using the considerable power of the US Federal Govt against individuals for their politics and for not-justifiably-illegal actions. They were destroying livelihoods and putting people in jail. It's easy to see in retrospect that the US was not at risk of the Red Tide because the economic fundamentals were absurdly better than what was needed for the leftist revolution. McCarthy & co. degraded America and damaged our principles out of stupid hysteria and demagoguery. This only went on as long as it did because there weren't enough level-headed people who were willing to pay the price of questioning it openly. Wikileaks/Manning/ioerror are not an existential threat to America, but this path of systematically abandoning principles of protecting individuals from the abuses of government power absolutely is.

kragen 15y ago

> I get that often from a whole slew of people I wouldn't expect to be cowardly. You know you can stay at my house any time. It's far too late for me to be cowardly. I'm not aware of any repercussions Beatrice or I have suffered so far for our association with you. > It's really awkward to date when the n-th date involves a discussion of possible harassing police raids in the middle of the night. Seems like that's something to discuss before the 0th date. You well know there are zillions of girls and guys who find outlaws sexy, especially outlaws for a real cause (as opposed to just crooks.)

aantix 15y ago

While I'm sure it's not feasible in every travel instance, is it possible to travel with a lawyer so that you have counsel by your side when the harassment occurs again?

mtex 15y ago
It is feasible and is well within his means. Jacob Appelbaum is not poor. With his work for Tor Appelbaum earns 96 000 dollars a year, almost triple the American average of 33 000 dollars. He's got enough money to get himself a lawyer. Even if he didn't have the money, Appelbaum has over 10 000 followers on Twitter, if everyone chipped in with $10 he'd have the money to sue the DHS. Wikileaks with Assange's 1,7 million bookdeal could also chip in with a bit of money. The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is: why is none of this happening? Why is Appelbaum openly wallowing in his victimization and defeatism, when he could be doing so many other things to pursue his 4th amendment rights? I can no longer escape the impression that I am watching a drama-queen theatre performance.
- jrockway 15y ago
  It's always very easy to spend other people's money, isn't it. I make more than the amount you quote, but I don't have enough money to go around suing the government. Is it because I'm a drama queen? Nope, it's because I have other things to do that require money. I am sure Appelbaum does too.
  - mtex 15y ago
    "It's always very easy to spend other people's money, isn't it." It's nowhere near as easy as pointing the finger at people with less means than yourself and calling them "cowards" for not having the financial means to pursue their rights. Using the law is expesive, but this particular person is not poor. He deliberately chooses to not use the law. "I make more than the amount you quote, but I don't have enough money to go around suing the government." Well, I'd have to ask, why don't you? Maybe that's the problem: all you people who really do have the means to sue the government aren't doing so. Instead, you're just pointing the finger at the "sheeple" who make a lot less than you do, saying: "Look at those cowards over there, they're doing anything to resist,the country is going down the drain because of them, bla bla bla". Listen, we are all on leash, and those of you with the longer leash should be doing more to resist than those of us with the shorter leash. Instead, you point the finger and call those with the shorter leash "cowards" and "collaborators". That's "lifestyle activism" for ya.