6 ms·

But can you be banned from doing business with millions of other people for offending the gatekeeper?

hysan 6y ago
Apple's grudge with Nvidia comes to mind, so maybe yes?
Razengan 6y ago
Why should Epic get to enjoy a market that Apple built without giving Apple anything or following the rules of the platform? Should anybody be able to post anything they want on HN or YouTube or Facebook etc.? They can't. Does Epic allow anyone to sell content for Fortnite without giving Epic any money? They don't.
- throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
  All I can do is throw up my hands and say "Stallman was right."
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- sjg007 6y ago
  Consumers bought the phone which can be be considered a general computing device.. so we should be free to run whatever software we want on it. That's the real argument.
  - fooey 6y ago
    This situation is a very large part of the reason I would never buy an iPhone. The walled garden isn't a surprise, it's a feature.
  - Keyframe 6y ago
    I agree with that, but it’s then also a broader question that covers all computing devices. Should I be able to run free whatever software I want in my car, in any of its systems? How about medical devices or any of the gaming consoles? It’ll probably end up being an argument on what a general computing device is.
    - chillacy 6y ago
      I mean... yes? I think we should have the right to modify / tinker with things we buy, with the understanding that doing so voids any warranties or manufacturer liability.
    - m-p-3 6y ago
      I wish I could say yes to all of those, as long as the risks of unintended behavior and damage are clearly explained.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      > Should I be able to run free whatever software I want in my car, in any of its systems? You already do. Mechanics do this all of the time with aftermarket firmware. > How about medical devices or any of the gaming consoles Jailbreaking is explicitly legal.
- stale2002 6y ago
  They should have access to it, because Apple is engaging in anti-competitive practices that are illegal, thats why.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    Does Epic allow anyone to sell content for Fortnite outside of Fortnite, without giving any money to Epic?
    - stale2002 6y ago
      Anti-competitiveness becomes worse, and illegal, if a market is larger. Many practices which would be perfectly legally normally, become illegal if your company is large enough. The market for iPhone apps is much much larger than the market for fortnite skins. If the market for specifically fortnite skins was 50 billion dollars a year, then maybe you would have a point, but it is not.
- dylan-m 6y ago
  Apple have hundreds of millions of loyal users buying new iPhones every few years as a result of that market. I think from that alone they are plenty compensated, and it's a perfectly good reason for Apple to provide a decent SDK. Or should successful developers send them a cake, too? Apple should ask for compensation proportionate to the value they are providing Epic. Which they do, in the form of paid Apple developer accounts, and a 30% cut on services Epic is using. For instance, if you choose to make your app free, Apple won't get that 30% cut on sales. This doesn't mean they are magically entitled to money as compensation - the transaction simply didn't happen. If they don't like that arrangement, maybe they should charge more for developer accounts?
- unchar1 6y ago
  Actually developers built the market. Without that Apps on the App store, the iPhone is worth almost nothing.
  - practice9 6y ago
    Yep, lack of apps is why Windows Phone died
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    Not to clients like myself who bought it because of the security provided by that locked-down environment. I'm not concerned about a game not being sold on it. It provides for a host of other purposes.
    - m-p-3 6y ago
      If executed properly, those two seemingly opposed features could be achieved and make more people happy. Make it possible to unlock iOS ability to sideload apps, either through a unique code, a security certificate, or a simple toggle and allows businesses to lock down (but not remotely enable) this ability using their MDM. Of course, put the usual disclaimer that enabling this feature could weaken the device security, and don't simply enable it because an app or a website told you so.
  - mulletbum 6y ago
    It would still be a phone. That said, of course developers built the market, but not every developer built the market. Apple developers built it. Other developers have chosen to sell inside of it. Without Apple Developers creating the store itself those developers couldn't sell anything. Apple could 100% do that if they wanted. In fact, the first iPhone was as such.
pneill 6y ago
Yup. Exactly. Think of it this way. You manufacture product foo and it's sold to customers via some national store chain. If you anger the owners of the store chain, they can simply refuse to carry your product anymore. This happens all the time. The app store is no different. It's a national chain that Epic sells through and they've poked the bear one too many times. Lucky for Epic that it's privately held. Otherwise they'd have a shareholder revolt.
- throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
  Apple doesn't own those phones anymore though, the users do. Whereas, I don't get to own my own best buy.
  - pneill 6y ago
    Users own the hardware, but not the software - they are grante a license to use the software. This is not about the hardware, it's about a single App, the App Store, which the user does not own.
    - throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
      And to which no alternative is permitted.
      - pneill 6y ago
        Correct. And this is not illegal. Using the store analogy - when you purchase at a store, the store has a markup on the product (usually 40%) - you cannot demand the store take a different markup because a store down the street is selling it for less, you can't set up a sign in the store telling patrons they can get a better deal down the road, and you can't say you want to pay in a particular currency because you don't have any of the local currency in your wallet. The store can establish policies like this for any patron that enters.
        6y ago

Apple's grudge with Nvidia comes to mind, so maybe yes?

Why should Epic get to enjoy a market that Apple built without giving Apple anything or following the rules of the platform? Should anybody be able to post anything they want on HN or YouTube or Facebook etc.? They can't. Does Epic allow anyone to sell content for Fortnite without giving Epic any money? They don't.

throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
All I can do is throw up my hands and say "Stallman was right."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
sjg007 6y ago
Consumers bought the phone which can be be considered a general computing device.. so we should be free to run whatever software we want on it. That's the real argument.
- fooey 6y ago
  This situation is a very large part of the reason I would never buy an iPhone. The walled garden isn't a surprise, it's a feature.
- Keyframe 6y ago
  I agree with that, but it’s then also a broader question that covers all computing devices. Should I be able to run free whatever software I want in my car, in any of its systems? How about medical devices or any of the gaming consoles? It’ll probably end up being an argument on what a general computing device is.
  - chillacy 6y ago
    I mean... yes? I think we should have the right to modify / tinker with things we buy, with the understanding that doing so voids any warranties or manufacturer liability.
  - m-p-3 6y ago
    I wish I could say yes to all of those, as long as the risks of unintended behavior and damage are clearly explained.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > Should I be able to run free whatever software I want in my car, in any of its systems? You already do. Mechanics do this all of the time with aftermarket firmware. > How about medical devices or any of the gaming consoles Jailbreaking is explicitly legal.
stale2002 6y ago
They should have access to it, because Apple is engaging in anti-competitive practices that are illegal, thats why.
- Razengan 6y ago
  Does Epic allow anyone to sell content for Fortnite outside of Fortnite, without giving any money to Epic?
  - stale2002 6y ago
    Anti-competitiveness becomes worse, and illegal, if a market is larger. Many practices which would be perfectly legally normally, become illegal if your company is large enough. The market for iPhone apps is much much larger than the market for fortnite skins. If the market for specifically fortnite skins was 50 billion dollars a year, then maybe you would have a point, but it is not.
dylan-m 6y ago
Apple have hundreds of millions of loyal users buying new iPhones every few years as a result of that market. I think from that alone they are plenty compensated, and it's a perfectly good reason for Apple to provide a decent SDK. Or should successful developers send them a cake, too? Apple should ask for compensation proportionate to the value they are providing Epic. Which they do, in the form of paid Apple developer accounts, and a 30% cut on services Epic is using. For instance, if you choose to make your app free, Apple won't get that 30% cut on sales. This doesn't mean they are magically entitled to money as compensation - the transaction simply didn't happen. If they don't like that arrangement, maybe they should charge more for developer accounts?
unchar1 6y ago
Actually developers built the market. Without that Apps on the App store, the iPhone is worth almost nothing.
- practice9 6y ago
  Yep, lack of apps is why Windows Phone died
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  Not to clients like myself who bought it because of the security provided by that locked-down environment. I'm not concerned about a game not being sold on it. It provides for a host of other purposes.
  - m-p-3 6y ago
    If executed properly, those two seemingly opposed features could be achieved and make more people happy. Make it possible to unlock iOS ability to sideload apps, either through a unique code, a security certificate, or a simple toggle and allows businesses to lock down (but not remotely enable) this ability using their MDM. Of course, put the usual disclaimer that enabling this feature could weaken the device security, and don't simply enable it because an app or a website told you so.
- mulletbum 6y ago
  It would still be a phone. That said, of course developers built the market, but not every developer built the market. Apple developers built it. Other developers have chosen to sell inside of it. Without Apple Developers creating the store itself those developers couldn't sell anything. Apple could 100% do that if they wanted. In fact, the first iPhone was as such.

pneill 6y ago

Yup. Exactly. Think of it this way. You manufacture product foo and it's sold to customers via some national store chain. If you anger the owners of the store chain, they can simply refuse to carry your product anymore. This happens all the time. The app store is no different. It's a national chain that Epic sells through and they've poked the bear one too many times. Lucky for Epic that it's privately held. Otherwise they'd have a shareholder revolt.

throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
Apple doesn't own those phones anymore though, the users do. Whereas, I don't get to own my own best buy.
- pneill 6y ago
  Users own the hardware, but not the software - they are grante a license to use the software. This is not about the hardware, it's about a single App, the App Store, which the user does not own.
  - throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
    And to which no alternative is permitted.
    - pneill 6y ago
      Correct. And this is not illegal. Using the store analogy - when you purchase at a store, the store has a markup on the product (usually 40%) - you cannot demand the store take a different markup because a store down the street is selling it for less, you can't set up a sign in the store telling patrons they can get a better deal down the road, and you can't say you want to pay in a particular currency because you don't have any of the local currency in your wallet. The store can establish policies like this for any patron that enters.
      - 6y ago