7 ms·

Agreed, it's not even about the money. My last company had a technical cofounder who by all means was highly sought after and managed a team of 15-20 other dev

Agreed, it's not even about the money. My last company had a technical cofounder who by all means was highly sought after and managed a team of 15-20 other developers in their primary dev consulting company meaning not only did they rock technically but also had biz acumen. That individual worked FOR FREE for 3 years 25 hrs/week before collecting any money. Don't ever think you have to pay a developer some market salary (or any salary) upfront. If the idea + company + team is legit, they will jump at the chance to be involved.

ricardobeat 6y ago
> Don't ever think you have to pay a developer some market salary (or any salary) upfront "A developer" should definitely be paid market rates, otherwise they are a founder and should be rewarded accordingly with equity. I think this mindset of "getting work for free" is very damaging to the person holding the short end of the stick. Someone who already has a well paid job, is willing to do a startup on the side, and actually be effective at it is extremely rare. What you'll usually find is someone at the beginning of their career that doesn't really understand what they are getting into.
- _curious_ 6y ago
  "otherwise they are a founder and should be rewarded accordingly with equity." Of course - as they were. My point was on cash money comp. Never said they worked for free hence their title of technical cofounder which implies equity. "...and actually be effective at it is extremely rare. What you'll usually find is someone at the beginning of their career that doesn't really understand what they are getting into." The onus is on the founding team to be sufficiently compelling to attract such a rare breed and if they execute correctly there is no short end to the stick to be had.
  - jamespollack 6y ago
    you're a dishonest liar. to quote you: "That individual worked FOR FREE for 3 years 25 hrs/week before collecting any money." so... yeah. you did say they worked for free. you're a creep with all your talk about 'rare breeds'
    - _curious_ 6y ago
      allow me to clarify that by for free i meant cash/salary out of pocket
KerryJones 6y ago
This is rich with availability bias. Just because you have had this experience doesn't mean that's possible for other people to do routinely. It sounds like a long tail event and using it as an example seems to be baseless. Congrats on being able to get him going, but I certainly wouldn't rely on that happening.
- _curious_ 6y ago
  Care to elaborate on what "rich with availability bias" means? I've never heard that one before. Also, the individual in reference wasn't the of the gender you're assuming.
  - KerryJones 6y ago
    Availability bias is a behavioral psychology term. > The availability bias is the human tendency to think that examples of things that come readily to mind are more representative than is actually the case. Ahh, my apologies, and thank you for the correction on gender.
deleted 6y ago
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dencodev 6y ago
The only instance in which I would work for free for three years would be if the business was started by a household name for HN regulars and they had a very good track record of successful ventures. Anything less is ridiculous.
- _curious_ 6y ago
  Sounds like you have a high standard, as you should!
  - jamespollack 6y ago
    it would be great to know what your startup is so i know just how low the low bar is set
jamespollack 6y ago
this is ridiculous. you expect people to give you their labor for free? not only expect it, but CELEBRATE IT IN ALL CAPS?! and you encourage others to not have to pay a developer a "market salary (or any salary)"? also it's not working for free if you've got fat equity on the way because you're a co-founder - you're just taking your compensation in a different form. so not only is this not some virtuous thing that they did out of the good of their heart, it's exploitative and should be looked at as an example of the reprehensible attitudes toward labor that have proliferated in the valley. you're probably one of those people who think interns should work for free, and that weekends are for catching up on work.
jamespollack 6y ago
tell me where to send the spec that you're going to just build for free

ricardobeat 6y ago

> Don't ever think you have to pay a developer some market salary (or any salary) upfront "A developer" should definitely be paid market rates, otherwise they are a founder and should be rewarded accordingly with equity. I think this mindset of "getting work for free" is very damaging to the person holding the short end of the stick. Someone who already has a well paid job, is willing to do a startup on the side, and actually be effective at it is extremely rare. What you'll usually find is someone at the beginning of their career that doesn't really understand what they are getting into.

_curious_ 6y ago
"otherwise they are a founder and should be rewarded accordingly with equity." Of course - as they were. My point was on cash money comp. Never said they worked for free hence their title of technical cofounder which implies equity. "...and actually be effective at it is extremely rare. What you'll usually find is someone at the beginning of their career that doesn't really understand what they are getting into." The onus is on the founding team to be sufficiently compelling to attract such a rare breed and if they execute correctly there is no short end to the stick to be had.
- jamespollack 6y ago
  you're a dishonest liar. to quote you: "That individual worked FOR FREE for 3 years 25 hrs/week before collecting any money." so... yeah. you did say they worked for free. you're a creep with all your talk about 'rare breeds'
  - _curious_ 6y ago
    allow me to clarify that by for free i meant cash/salary out of pocket

KerryJones 6y ago

This is rich with availability bias. Just because you have had this experience doesn't mean that's possible for other people to do routinely. It sounds like a long tail event and using it as an example seems to be baseless. Congrats on being able to get him going, but I certainly wouldn't rely on that happening.

_curious_ 6y ago
Care to elaborate on what "rich with availability bias" means? I've never heard that one before. Also, the individual in reference wasn't the of the gender you're assuming.
- KerryJones 6y ago
  Availability bias is a behavioral psychology term. > The availability bias is the human tendency to think that examples of things that come readily to mind are more representative than is actually the case. Ahh, my apologies, and thank you for the correction on gender.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dencodev 6y ago

The only instance in which I would work for free for three years would be if the business was started by a household name for HN regulars and they had a very good track record of successful ventures. Anything less is ridiculous.

_curious_ 6y ago
Sounds like you have a high standard, as you should!
- jamespollack 6y ago
  it would be great to know what your startup is so i know just how low the low bar is set

jamespollack 6y ago

this is ridiculous. you expect people to give you their labor for free? not only expect it, but CELEBRATE IT IN ALL CAPS?! and you encourage others to not have to pay a developer a "market salary (or any salary)"? also it's not working for free if you've got fat equity on the way because you're a co-founder - you're just taking your compensation in a different form. so not only is this not some virtuous thing that they did out of the good of their heart, it's exploitative and should be looked at as an example of the reprehensible attitudes toward labor that have proliferated in the valley. you're probably one of those people who think interns should work for free, and that weekends are for catching up on work.

jamespollack 6y ago

tell me where to send the spec that you're going to just build for free