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Yikes. I've been earning 6 figures as of about two years ago doing mostly HTML and CSS UI design for a bank. And I still did not know about many of these! I gue
by hellofunk 6y ago
Yikes. I've been earning 6 figures as of about two years ago doing mostly HTML and CSS UI design for a bank. And I still did not know about many of these! I guess they are things I wish I'd known about CSS! Better late than never I guess.
- ChrisRR 6y agoSix figures? In the US? Sometimes I wonder why companies even pay developers so much in the US. I'm a specialised medical embedded software developer in the UK and I'm not even halfway to six figures, and will likely never hit it. It astounds me that companies don't hire twice as many non-US developers for the same price and get more work for their money. Note, I'm not talking about outsourcing to the absolute cheapest bottom of the barrel developers who cost 1/20 of the price and the quality reflects the price. Just equally skilled developers in non-US countries.
- christophilus 6y agoThat is going to happen. Big corporations are finally waking up to 1st class remote work, and that’s the gateway to lower US wages. I say this as a remote worker, and a huge fan of remote work. But I do think the high US salaries are going to mean revert a bit.
- nanna 6y agoSounds to me like tech workers in the US should join a union, and quick!
- indigochill 6y agoNow, admittedly I'm a skeptic of unions by default (in my view they're mostly just another layer of bureaucracy/waste), but isn't unionization of tech workers in the US the quickest way to make themselves even less desirable? Why hire a US union member when you can hire an Eastern European who both works for peanuts and doesn't have union hang-ups? (Admittedly outsourcing has its own problems, especially when there are language/cultural barriers)
- wirespot 6y agoEU has very strong employee rights, so that will come to the same point as a union in the US. The lower pay is an advantage but the time zone difference of 8-12 hours can be a disadvantage. There are no language barriers in IT between the US and Europe, by the time they graduate college the average European has gone through more than a decade of English courses. Cultural differences are minor, management style is very similar (in the East) and so is the communication culture. So yes, lots of American companies already outsource to East Europe. There are lots of "Silicon Valley"s across EE thriving on Western outsourcing from companies who aren't quite desperate or cheap enough to go to India.
- cosmodisk 6y agoThere are some phenomenal outsourced shops in EE. Those that do pay 2-4 higher the going rate in the country. These aren't wordpress sweatshops. These are usually small teams and people work on interesting,specialised projects. Management style is usually very pragmatic ( a means a and let's cut the crap) .But the best part about these is that people do get exposed to things,build experience and eventually start on their own. 10-15 years ago there was hardly any product driven company in my country.Now the ones most worth working for do have successful software product that are sold in western markets.
- speedgoose 6y agoThe US salaries in IT are huge, but you need to take into account that they have to pay a lot to have a quality of life comparable to what a minimum wage worker is getting in west Europe. If you have a few kids, I would bet you are not that bad in UK with one fewer digit.
- rusticpenn 6y agoYes, This is the main difference. In Germany the education is free and medical insurance not something to worry about ( I have no idea about what deductables, deletables etc mean). This is where the difference lies.
- wirespot 6y agoAs simple rule of thumb an employer in the EU has to pay roughly double the net salary amount, so on top of the salary pocketed by the employee yet another similar amount goes to taxes. The education/insurance aren't "free", they're just managed better and give more direct benefits to the taxpayer.
- rusticpenn 6y agoIt depends. When I was a student, I did not have to spend a penny on medical biils, my wife got paid by the government for some courses (+ cost of rent etc) that would have costed us around 20K € at that time. Now that we are earning enough, I have no problem in paying back, so that others who need it will be also be able to achieve their dreams.
- sushshshsh 6y agoDeductable is a scary word but a simple concept, it represents the amount of money you must pay before your insurance begins to pay bills for you :)
- rusticpenn 6y agoThat is scary. When my child had to stay in the hospital for a month, the main costs for me were the parking tickets.
- mroset 6y agoFor context: I'm an American who's currently working as a software engineer in France (for a French company). I agree that engineering salaries are much higher in the US than in Europe and other non-US countries, however it's worth considering that there are additional expenses to hiring in other countries. My french salary is ~30-40% lower than I was making in the US. However, my cost to my employer is nearly as high. Employer taxes are much higher, my company is required to reimburse my transit and all-but-obligated to cover lunch as well. Certainly, many US software companies do some/all of that, but not all. And beyond those pure costs, there are more liabilities to the employer. For instance, if they want to fire me, they're legally on the hook for four months of severance. And, I get ~7 weeks of combined vacation time and "comp time" (based on the fact that I work more than 35 hours a week). In the US, I got 2-3 weeks. I don't have exact numbers, and I don't disagree that there are potentially savings to be had, but I don't think it's nearly as clear cut that you could get anything close to twice as many developers.
- benhurmarcel 6y agoHere is an official simulator for France: https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net It's not 100% accurate (the exact amounts depend on many variables) but gives a good idea. For example, a cost to the employer of USD 100k (87460€/year) gives a before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k.
- dahfizz 6y ago> before-taxes salary of USD 70.5k, and a salary after all taxes of USD 47k. What!? That's over 30% of your income gone, and for a relatively average income. That's not even counting VAT and other taxes.... No wonder there's so much "free" stuff in Europe.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago€61k before taxes isn't really a relatively average income in France. A junior engineer (with a Masters) starts around €35k ($40k) before-taxes. Country-wide median salary is €28k ($32k). But across all those salaries it doesn't change the fact that around 45~55% of the employer's cost isn't going to the employee. And yes, taxes and cotisations are very high. On the other hand they cover most higher costs and risks in life (education, health, basic retirement…).
- Tade0 6y agoSometimes I wonder why companies even pay developers so much in the US. It boils down to real estate prices combined with some companies really really really wanting those people to be on site. I had my highest rate ever during a brief, beautiful moment in Switzerland where a studio apartment costs ~$2000 per month. I choose to think that this rate is how much our work is actually worth - otherwise those companies couldn't afford having people on site.
- AdrianB1 6y agoThis is a catch 22, high wages make the rent increase (demand and offer) and high rents demand high salaries, it's a spiral going to a bubble.
- Tade0 6y agoIndeed, but eventually a ceiling is reached over which it would be impossible to make a profit having on-site employees. I don't envy the locals though. I spent 2,5 months in Zurich, during which I saved so much that in pre-corona times it would be enough for the minimal allowed down payment for an apartment. The Swiss don't have a Switzerland of Switzerland where they could pull off the same trick.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y agoHousing supply is the variable that can act as a release valve. If cities don't want to expand vertically, that's fine, but they'll inevitably end up in a Bay Area type rent spiral. I think the real issue is that homeowners vote so much more frequently than renters (who would love to have more housing and lower rents), even though they're technically outnumbered.
- wruza 6y agoI think (hope, really) that gp is just one heavy "/s". The knowledge presented in the article is so basic that it is hard to believe that a person who does html for two years and six figures doesn't know these. As for the article, I fail to see any reason for it to exist beyond cheap media presence. Or maybe I should start a blog, because I'm not even halfway too.
- runawaybottle 6y agoThere is probably more to the story here. If you’re only at about 50k, you’re making $24 an hour. There’s even cheaper labor than you. It’s going to be a disgusting race to the bottom if we start paying everyone 20, 18, 15 ... dollars an hour. At this point in my life you would have to pay me around six figures for me to do CSS seriously on a daily basis (and it’s likely I’ll still burn out and leave). The cross browser and device testing alone is so tedious and stress inducing that I simply won’t do the job below a certain price point (or I will out of desperation but definitely will bounce ASAP). The unsaid thing about doing heavy CSS work is that it doubles as a QA job from all the testing required. And again, I’m someone that’s good at it. You can’t pay me enough to do it, not if I have choices.
- ChrisRR 6y agoIf you think CSS is tedious, then you've never dealt with medical device regulations. cross browser testing will seem like an absolute breeze. If a UK employer were paying £90k for CSS, absolutely everybody and their dog would be applying for a job that pays double a typical dev salary. I think we've already experienced the race to the bottom and come out the other side, with $24 being fairly average for the world and the US being on the high side. This all happened years bacj when companies started outsourcing development and IT to India at rock bottom prices, but then received a lot of low-quality work (you get what you pay for). I believe India has a much different approach to software quality than many other countries. It's taken many companies years to realise that mistake, but I wouldn't call $24 a race to the bottom for skilled labour as that will land you comfortably above average income in the UK
- runawaybottle 6y agoShould we go lower than 24 dollars? Sincere question. If not, never ever show bitterness for your fellowship that brought honor to the profession, wherever they are. I hope never to see developers disrespected that way, anywhere in the world.
- perl4ever 6y agoThere's a whole world outside SF in the US where people do make ~$24/hr. It is well above the median salary in the US. Things may be closer to equilibrium than a lot of people think. I used to work for an outsourcing company that was roughly 50-50 people in the US and in India, and there was never any indication that the US people would be fired en masse, probably because they were somewhat more productive, and somewhat higher paid, and the differences weren't huge.
- pjc50 6y ago> Sometimes I wonder why companies even pay developers so much in the US. Presenteeism. The office "has to" be in Silicon Valley. The employees "have to" be in that office, in an open plan, so the manager can physically see them working. Therefore they have to be paid huge wages to compete against the other employers doing the same.
- bgroat 6y agoSerious questions. Which countries would you suggest for this? Just the UK?
- jfkebwjsbx 6y agoAll Europe?
- benhurmarcel 6y agoThe only European countries where costs are as high as the US for tech salaries are basically Switzerland and Norway. In the rest of Europe you have access to a very qualified workforce for less money. But they also have more protection than in the US (fewer unpaid hours, more holidays, no cheap dismissal…).
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- lucozade 6y agoI think the important bit of info is that they work for a bank, not that they write CSS. If I look at the equivalent compensation for people who work for me, the vast majority of developers in the UK and US earn > $100k. Like for like the US employees earn more but that's almost wholly swallowed up in other costs (basically healthcare and our US healthcare plan isn't particularly bad). And the FAANGs and hedge funds, in my experience, have a reasonably similar dynamic. The simple fact is that we generally don't hire for PL knowledge except in very specific circumstances (KDB for example). If all we wanted was a coder, there are much more cost effective options than hiring someone, regardless of location.
- TheBigSalad 6y ago1. Why do you think UK software companies aren't more successful compared to American ones. Aren't they saving tons on development costs? 2. Have you considered that you are terribly underpaid?
- porker 6y agoI've done CSS since 1999, none of this was new to me, and I've never earned 6 figures for doing HTML and CSS. I moved my career away from HTML/CSS in order to earn more.
- davidmurdoch 6y agoSame here (but started in 2000), except I didn't know about the ch unit. OP likely has some great soft skills and negotiation prowess.
- towb 6y agoI think we picked up a lot more of the basics back in the days because doing CSS was much less forgiving than it is now. And the whole struggle with pixel perfect between browsers just forced you to spend hours on these tiny things.
- miiiiiike 6y agoI've never been happy with a front-end dev that I've paid six-figures to. I once paid a senior front-end engineer far too much to do a fairly involved layout. Three months, an uncountable number of bugs, and one unusable tangle of Sass later I pulled the plug and swore off ever hiring a "CSS Person" again. I took the Linus+Git approach and said "I'm not writing another line of Python until I understand CSS." After a few weeks of study (I read CSS: The Definitive Guide cover-to-cover) I was able to implement the layout in, and I'm not exaggerating, two hours. No bugs, responsive, cross browser support, etc. Flat out done. I went back to the dev and asked why they tried to implement it with over a thousand lines of Sass using Flexbox over a few lines with CSS Grid. It went like this: Me: "Hey, why did you choose Flexbox over CSS Grid for feature XYZ?" Senior Front-End Dev (SFED): "I used a grid. Bootstrap's grid." Me: "No, CSS Grid" SFED: "Like the 'display: grid' thing? I don't know how that works." I've never met a CSS Person who has read a book on CSS. Or one that can do the arithmetic on a simple flex-grow/flex-shrink/flex-basis combo.. Even with a cheat sheet. I'm a back-end dev, I used to think that CSS was "garbage". After learning the ins and outs I think it's a pretty remarkable set of technologies. A true discipline. But, it's hard to find someone who really understands it because it sits at a weird level in the tech stack. Most developers feel it's beneath them or that they "have the gist of it" and most CSS specialists don't have a firm grip on it or keep up with browser developments. If you're going to work with, hire, or exist as a "CSS Person" within 6-feet of me I'm going to require you to read "CSS: The Definitive Guide" before I give your laptop charger back to you. This article is good, but it's barely the bare minimum that you need to know about not knowing CSS. Six-figures for a "CSS Person" who's read CSS:TDG is completely worth it. CSS and Sass are both worth mastering. For CSS read: "CSS: The Definitive Guide" (https://www.amazon.com/CSS-Definitive-Guide-Visual-Presentation/dp/1449393195/?tag=codewordsio-20 https://www.amazon.com/CSS-Definitive-Guide-Visual-Presentat...) For Sass read: "Pragmatic Guide to Sass 3" (https://www.amazon.com/Pragmatic-Guide-Sass-Modern-Style/dp/1680501763/?tag=codewordsio-20 https://www.amazon.com/Pragmatic-Guide-Sass-Modern-Style/dp/...)
- nefitty 6y agoThis might be one of the most helpful book recommendations I’ve ever read.
- Priem19 6y agoSix figures for HTML and CSS, sorry, but I don't believe you.
- Aachen 6y agoInteresting, I am really really bad at css but knew all of this. Long ago, someone gave me 7 euros an hour to do some of this (and html/js/php; I never designed anything, I just edited an existing site to specifications, but css was still my least favorite part). Aren't these just things you run into and pick up on in the first webdev projects you do?!